[00:00:56] Mel: Hi everyone. And welcome back to less chatter, more matter. It [00:01:00] is great to have you here. Whether you are a loyal listener or new to the show, you have tuned in on an exciting episode because I have a few things to celebrate with you. Firstly, last week, the podcast passed a major milestone, over 1000 downloads.

[00:01:18] Oh my goodness. I was so excited to see that, but also just so humbled that people have listened to my ramblings that many times since we launched at the beginning of the year. And look, I know those numbers are nothing compared to some of the big podcasts, but it really does mean a lot to me. So a massive thank you to everyone who has listened, subscribed, rated, reviewed, or passed on my podcast to others.

[00:01:41] It really does mean the world to me. And it helps to validate that what I'm producing is valuable for others. So on that note, if you have any burning questions or topic ideas, please send them in. There's a link in the show notes to a form where you can leave your questions or just shoot me an email or a DM and I'm happy to have a chat.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] The second thing I'm celebrating, well, you may have picked that up in the new intro. To the podcast is that my newest nibbling was born a couple of weeks ago. So my little sister had a baby girl and everyone is safe and sound. So that brings the nibbling count to 12 and Christmas just got more expensive yet again, but I'm really happy.

[00:02:24] And the third thing to celebrate is that this is our first episode with a guest speaker. So for those of you who don't know, way back in the day, I had great dreams of being a journalist. So off to uni, I went to get my journalism degree. And while I didn't end up becoming a journalist for a variety of reasons, along the way through that study, I really fell in love with radio journalism and interviewing interesting people.

[00:02:49] So I do feel like I'm coming. Full circle a little bit with hosting a podcast and interviewing people again. And I'm delighted that my first guest is [00:03:00] not only a very interesting person, but a smart and incredibly wonderful human as well. Paula Maidens is a hiring and leadership coach and speaker, and I'm honored to have her on the show today.

[00:03:12] Paula helps fast growing entrepreneurs build high performing teams so they can scale with ease, get their time back and create the life they damn well deserve. She's been a business consultant for over 13 years and uses her signature six pillar framework to shift the perception that hiring leadership.

[00:03:30] And stepping up as an empowered CEO needs to feel hard. She has a straight talking reputation and uses her simple systems and tools to support you to look within, find a way that feels authentic and amazing and build your dream team to support your dream life. As an entrepreneur herself, Paula shares her own business and life lessons, as well as the hands on experience she has from interviewing and hiring.

[00:03:55] Thousands of people for her clients, and we will talk to her a little bit about her [00:04:00] background, not just in entrepreneurship, but where she actually got started, it's quite surprising. She's also a proud mom to two beautiful boys. She's a very happy wife, a passionate Yogi and an avid traveler. Now, Paula has been instrumental to me and many of my other business owner friends in successfully navigating hiring and leadership challenges.

[00:04:21] And the reason I've asked her on the show today is that. As a team, we were reflecting on the fact that this time of year is all about performance review conversations in many businesses, and I'm sure we've all had both good and bad experiences of these conversations. Let me tell you, I've got stories now, whether you agree that performance conversations should be run the way they are or not in many businesses, they are linked to bonuses, so they become a necessary part of the machine.

[00:04:49] Now I could talk about my own take on these conversations, both as someone who's led them and someone who's been on the receiving end, but I am no expert. So I wanted to bring someone in [00:05:00] who actually is the expert on these things. So in today's episode with Paula, we will cover whether or not performance conversations are actually necessary, at least the way they're structured, the common mistakes leaders make in these conversations and her top tips for talking about performance.

[00:05:16] So without further ado, let's get into the conversation.

[00:05:20] Paula: Hi,

[00:05:20] Mel: Paula. Thank you for joining me today on less chat and more matter.

[00:05:24] Paula: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:05:27] Mel: And so am I, and do you know what, you are my first guest on the podcast. So it's episode 25 and you're the first. Yeah.

[00:05:35] Paula: I'm excited. Thank you for having me.

[00:05:38] Mel: So today's all about performance conversations because it is kind of that time of year where there's a lot of those sort of midyear reviews going on.

[00:05:46] But I also just think it's something that's probably not done very well from a communications perspective, a lot of the time, and I've certainly been one having those conversations and have been on the receiving end, so I could talk about that experience, but I thought, actually, we probably should just get an expert and that's you.[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] So tell us a little bit about yourself and how, how did you actually become a hiring and leadership coach? And what does that actually mean?

[00:06:08] Paula: Yes, thank you so much for asking, because it's, it's, it's the question. A lot of people ask, what does that mean? Do I need one? What's the thing? So my I've been a in leadership roles for a long time.

[00:06:18] Um, I've sort of been working for over 20 years now, and I sort of came to becoming a hiring and leadership coach, realizing that people didn't know how to hire great people. They didn't know how to interview them. You know, they're paying huge fees to recruitment agencies. Including myself, who was a corporate recruiter, um, sort of previously as a director in a, in a big global recruitment firm over in London.

[00:06:37] Um, and so I sort of set out to help people help businesses get the team piece better. Ideally we hire the right people from the outset. But then teaching people and empowering people that actually it doesn't stop there. So if you want somebody to perform, you actually need to be the best version of yourself that you can be as a leader.

[00:06:58] And part of that is having really [00:07:00] open, robust feedback conversations and performance conversations. So I became a hiring a leadership coach to transfer knowledge, to teach people in leadership positions, how to actually hire the right people and how to step into that role of leader, to really bring out the best in their team.

[00:07:17] Mel: That's fantastic. And I think you're right. You know, I've been a hiring leader myself, and it's really hard when you're trying to look for, I think you're always looking for the unicorn. And so you've got this really set expectation of what that looks like, but actually you just sometimes need that extra insight to go, well, is that actually what you need?

[00:07:36] Or is actually what you need something else. And how do you then go through the process of recruiting for that person as well? So you've given me some really top tips for when I was recruiting recently. Thank you so much. They did absolutely help me find the right person. Shout out to April here.

[00:07:52] So, when we, when it comes to performance conversations, look, are they even necessary and [00:08:00] what, and if they are, why?

[00:08:02] Paula: Absolutely. So feedback conversations are essential. And we'll talk a little bit about the difference between performance and feedback conversations as well. But I guess, you know, we've started already talking about how important it is to hire the right person.

[00:08:15] And then what you need to do as a leader to step up. And I guess what I want to share is the reality is you can hire someone. Awesome. Like a total A rockstar, but if the way you treat them in the business, the frameworks you have set up, the conversations you do and don't have with them, they can end up being an average to low performer or opt out.

[00:08:36] So you may have made an amazing hiring decision, but if you don't support them in the workplace, then they won't perform. Similarly, you can hire somebody who's average, so to speak with my inverted commas happening here and what you do with them in the workplace - is what will support them to thrive. So performance conversations, feedback conversations are part of what you need to do to [00:09:00] support people to thrive.

[00:09:02] Because nobody can perform to your expectations unless you are explicit with what those expectations are. Everybody that joins your business comes with a whole host of assumptions and bias and all the things based on their previous life and work experiences. Now, you have maybe an hour, maybe 2 hours, maybe 3 hours of interview conversations where you talk about all the things, you know, typically somebody is presented with a job description.

[00:09:29] But, but there's no way that they actually specifically know what you need them to do the way it, the way you want it done. So all that anybody can actually do is assume that they know, make the best assumptions they can and typically try their hardest. Now, performance conversations are needed to let somebody know where, where they're at and how they're performing, you know, against that hundred percent perfect job description, I guess.

[00:09:59] So it's almost [00:10:00] like, you know, a mark in the sand saying, okay, cool, you're at 75% or you're at 7 out of 10 on this, you know, part of your role, et cetera, et cetera. And the difference, I guess, between a performance and a feedback conversation is the feedback that somebody should be receiving. The whole time, you know, you'd be the gone off on a little bit of a tangent.

[00:10:20] You've made it. You've made an incorrect assumption here. Talk me through why you thought you should do it that way when we're, because we were actually looking for this and what went wrong and how did you get to that point? Ah, I understand. Typically it's assumptions. So feedback conversations should be really regular.

[00:10:35] And typically a performance conversation is kind of like that stake in the ground once a year or every six months where we kind of go, okay, let's, let's actually do a full assessment of how you're performing against what's required in the role.

[00:10:47] Mel: Yeah, I love that differentiation there that you made. And, you know, I also think if you're doing those regular feedback conversations, in real time, essentially, you know, as it happens, then nothing comes as a [00:11:00] real shock or it shouldn't come as a shock at the performance review, would you agree?

[00:11:03] Paula: Absolutely. I've, I've had a lot of clients who have gone out and worked for themselves in business and they actually carry with themselves into business, performance conversation trauma. They've gone into these performance conversations in a corporate environment, which is felt scary and unsafe. And they've received a whole bunch of information about how they've been performing the role, which has come as a total surprise. When, you know, the previous 11 and a half, 12 months, they've been trying so hard and nobody's told them that they were off track and then suddenly the big meeting comes along and you know, it's, it's one big surprise. So that's absolutely why we want to be having regular feedback conversations because frankly, it's not fair. If you see someone not doing the right thing, it is your job as their manager, as their leader, to let them know that they're not on track.

[00:11:55] Because otherwise you're actually being unfair by withholding that information because [00:12:00] you're not providing them with the opportunity to correct.

[00:12:03] Mel: Yeah. And I think, you know, it's also unfair on the team as well as a whole, because it makes it harder for the team as a whole to perform. If one person isn't performing, but doesn't know about it, doesn't understand why they're not doing that.

[00:12:18] Um, and I think Brené Brown puts it beautifully. She says, you know, Clarity is kindness. And I feel like these regular touch points of feedback are about being clear. It's about being kind by being clear along the way.

[00:12:30] Paula: Absolutely. And I love Brené. And she also talks about, um, psychological safety and how people need to feel safe to actually outperform.

[00:12:39] So you can imagine it's like, how do you create a really safe environment for your team? Well, you need them to know that they can trust you to let them know, if they're doing something that's not on track, that they're not going to hear it through another team member, that they're not going to have to try and work it out through your mood, or, you know, maybe you're being snappy one day and they might start reading into that because you're not having frank, open conversations.[00:13:00]

[00:13:00] So if you want high performance, you need to create a safe environment and that comes with transparency that comes with feedback and knowing that it's out there on the table because you're supporting the person to do their best.

[00:13:12] Mel: Yeah, love that. Love Brené as well. Big fan girl. Absolutely.

[00:13:16] So, look, is it just semantics or is there a difference between coaching conversations, feedback conversations, performance conversations?

[00:13:25] Is coaching conversations something else altogether?

[00:13:28] Paula: Yeah, great question. And look, I don't, I guess I'm not. They do, they do get gray and, you know, again, we don't want to get too much caught up in the semantics. The difference is a coaching conversation is where you are, you are going through a process of asking questions and getting the person to give you suggestions as to how they think they can be doing something better to try and get them to the other side.

[00:13:51] So if we think of a coach, a swimming coach, a swimming coach doesn't get in the pool, they walk alongside them, they have a conversation beforehand about, You know, what are your goals? Do you want to [00:14:00] go to the Olympics or do you just want to get a little bit fitter? Do we want to swim one length today or two lengths, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:14:04] Um, and then they support them along the way. So a coaching conversation is absolutely necessary and typically more necessary in the earlier days of somebody joining your team, coming into a role, or maybe they've been promoted into a new role. They need to be coached to, to, to know, and to work out for themselves how to get better, at their role.

[00:14:28] Separate to that is a performance conversation where if you think of, again, it's like at the Olympics, we're running, we're running the race. What was the result? So it's that it's that stake in the ground. Okay, so where are we? We've had all these coaching conversations where we've talked about the things you can do to get better and the things you need to try and the support that's on offer for you, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:14:48] But then the performance conversation is like, how are you actually performing? As a result of those coaching conversations, as a result of the training you've received, as a result of, you know, the time that you've been [00:15:00] here, et cetera, et cetera. So there is a difference and they're both really necessary.

[00:15:05] Coaching takes time and that's one of the things that lots of people, one of the reasons, I guess, why lots of people either don't do it. Or delay it or procrastinate over it because it's an investment of time. The easiest thing is just to tell, tell, tell people what to do. Just go and do this differently. You did that wrong.

[00:15:25] That's not coaching and it's not developing the person to, to work out for themselves and to think how they can get better at whatever element of the job you're talking about.

[00:15:35] Mel: Yeah, I love that. And that, uh, swimming coach analogy really helps to cement it. And you know what you've just done there? It's a, it's a communications tactic to use story and analogy to help explain complex ideas.

[00:15:47] So well done master communicator, which I would expect nothing less. So look, let's talk about the conversation itself. What are some of the common mistakes that leaders can [00:16:00] make in performance conversations?

[00:16:03] Paula: I think the biggest one is not bringing specific examples to the conversation. So often people incorrectly think that being a little bit vague or, you know, beating around the bush is a kinder way to deliver the news.

[00:16:19] Whereas actually calling on our friend Brene again, being clear is kind. So when somebody receives negative feedback, they go through a process of: shock, anger, resistance, acceptance, and the quickest way to get somebody through the shock and anger part is through specific examples. So, because you can imagine you can't sort of stick in that resistance.

[00:16:43] No, that's not right. That didn't happen. Blah, blah, blah for very long. If you can actually say, see where this happened, see where you did this, this is actually what was expected of you. You know, this is the difference. So, not bringing specific examples to the table is a big one. So, you need to gather them.

[00:16:58] So if you, if you, if [00:17:00] you need to gather them as they happen, you need to document things as they happen to make your conversations really powerful. That's the first one. The second one you've already touched on, and that is the performance in the information that the person's receiving in the performance conversation being a surprise; huge mistake.

[00:17:18] And again, it's easy to think, well, I'm being kind by not pointing out all your mistakes along the way, but then what you're doing is you're really emphasizing that shock factor, which makes it even harder for someone to hear and receive the information that you're trying to share. So, the second one being surprise.

[00:17:37] The third one, the language that's used is often incorrectly confrontational. So it's not necessarily phrased and prepared in a balanced, normalized, and ideally positive way. Yeah. And obviously that can happen because the person delivering the message [00:18:00] may not be comfortable with their role in delivering the, you know, the negative feedback, or it may be because they don't know how to phrase it in a different way, or they may actually think, Oh God, I have to go and confront this person.

[00:18:11] Whereas actually, It's just, it's a normal part of being a leader, and we need to deliver feedback and performance conversations in a balanced way and make it part of business. And so then I think the 4th mistake that people make is that is around that positivity, like not making it an overall positive conversation or finding a positive way forward at the end.

[00:18:31] If there is a positive future for this person; It's a different story, of course, if you're having a performance conversation that, um, you know, is very, is, is highly negative. And the person really needs to understand how important it is that the behavior changes because their role's at risk; different story.

[00:18:48] Um, even then we want to sort of weave some positivity and hope into the conversation, but we always want to be delivering feedback and performance conversations in a positive way with a positive [00:19:00] intention.

[00:19:02] Mel: Those are excellent, I guess, red flags, but also opportunities. And it's interesting what you say around language, because obviously this is a comms podcast.

[00:19:11] So language is a big part of what we, we talk about on this podcast. Can you give me maybe an example of language that could be flipped or used differently? So it is more positive.

[00:19:22] Paula: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that when delivering feedback, it needs to be. As we, it needs to, we need to depersonalize it as much as possible.

[00:19:33] So we need to make it about what's required of the role, as opposed to you not doing something. So you can, I'm sort of, I'm pointing my finger here at Mel.

[00:19:41] Mel: We can't see that. She's very aggressive.

[00:19:46] Paula: So it's kind of the flip of the language from: you need to stop doing this, to, the business needs the person in the role to be doing this, achieving these results to support the business to do X, Y, and Z.

[00:19:59] So it's that [00:20:00] full depersonalization of the language and bringing the specific example to the tail- to the table really helps that, you know, in this example, when this was done like this, the impact it had on the business was this. So trying to sort of lift it from the you for me kind of language to the, you know, that sort of bigger picture, we're all working for this bigger purpose.

[00:20:22] You know, your role is part of a bigger scheme of things. This is the knock on effect, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:20:27] Mel: Yeah, I love that. And actually, um, that's very similar to one of the best pieces of advice I ever got many years ago when I was first starting out as a leader, uh, I was sought out advice from another leader and, uh, she said, talk about the role, not the person.

[00:20:42] And that was just a game changer for me in terms of being able to have those conversations. Uh, I guess more kindly, but also still getting to the point. So that was really great.

[00:20:53] Paula: And that's a much more succinct way of saying it than what I said.[00:21:00]

[00:21:00] Mel: Do all the words. So look, what are some of your tips then for great performance conversations?

[00:21:07] Paula: So to normalize it, first of all, to make them regular conversations, make them part of business, make them part of your culture. This is the way we do things here. We catch up every month. We have a balanced feedback conversation.

[00:21:17] It's just what we do. It's not a big deal. So, you know, make it safe, make it normal, make it just part of, you know, what you do, structure it. Have those conversations in a structured way, have a structure for them that the person knows that also creates safety. My suggested structure that I suggest is having four quadrants, what's working well, what can be improved, goals for the next 90 days, and what support do you need?

[00:21:41] And both people coming to that conversation, having given some thought to each of those quadrants. And then the third tip I'd say is prepare before every conversation. So the official performance conversation and before each monthly feedback one, prepare and practice. What you want to [00:22:00] say and how you're going to say it.

[00:22:02] So don't put that pressure on yourself to come up with the perfect phrasing at the time, particularly for the tricky things you need to say, tune in here, find out from Mel how to word it up really well, say it out loud, write it out and really prepare so that it comes out fluidly. It can come out with a smile and it doesn't accidentally come out with any sort of confrontational intentions, which you didn't mean.

[00:22:26] Mel: Those are three great tips. And I particularly like, uh, your structure because with any communication, having a structure is so helpful. It really just helps you to get very clear on what it is you need to say, what you're trying to achieve, where you're trying to get to. And if you just go into any conversation or any communication without a structure, it can just be a dog's breakfast and nobody knows what's going on.

[00:22:48] So thank you for sharing that. It's a really great structure. So Paula, there's three questions we'll be asking every guest on this show. Are you up for that?

[00:22:56] Paula: Absolutely. Let's go. Let's go.

[00:22:58] Mel: All right. Question number [00:23:00] one. What's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:23:08] Paula: I think one of the best ones I've ever been taught is to neutralize myself and my thoughts around the situation before going into it, particularly the big conversations. So to try not to bring all the emotions to whatever it is I'm trying to say, definitely not easy, but, you know, even sort of the awareness of that helps.

[00:23:32] Mel: Love that. That's really great. Question number two. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:23:40] Paula: Oh, I wish people would be, particularly when it comes to their teams, I really wish that people embraced conversations and openness for for what it is, as opposed to worrying about what it might turn into.

[00:23:55] So I think that a lot of people avoid, um, [00:24:00] having open, transparent conversations because they're worried about what emotion they're going to receive, what the person is going to think, what the person is going to think of them, if the person is going to leave, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas sometimes if we just stay in this moment.

[00:24:12] It, it actually is really, really effective. It's just, this is what's happened. This is what I need to share with you. This is why it's important. Let's just stay here and not let our mind wander away and actually let it be what it is.

[00:24:24] Mel: Yeah, and I totally agree. The anxiety hijacks the logic a lot of the time and just, you know, getting into that place where you're just like, these are the facts.

[00:24:33] Let's talk about them. I think that's really, yeah, that's really great. And our last question, who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:24:41] Paula: Well, you Mel, of course,

[00:24:46] I absolutely love listening to, to your podcast, of course, and talking to you about things. And I think one of your, um, real talents, and I'm sure one of the reasons everybody's tuning in is because of your ability to really succinctly, say something or [00:25:00] show something in a written format or a picture. Um, so, so obviously I tap into you and I'm, I guess I'm just a big, I'm a huge reader.

[00:25:08] So I'm always looking to, to read biographies and read stories from people who've walked the path before me. Um, as an entrepreneur myself, I'm always looking to read. Basically every single female biography that ever gets written, I'll read it, um, autobiography, um, and because I'm looking to sort of understand, well, what were your challenges?

[00:25:28] How did you handle it? How did you phrase things, et cetera, et cetera. So, so there's not one other person other than I'll just say you.

[00:25:36] Mel: Oh, thank you so much, but I agree. The osmosis that you get from reading and watching and watching the way people interact around you can be a really great way to, to get some really good nuggets of advice.

[00:25:47] Well, speaking of good nuggets of advice, you have given us so much gold today for today's episode. Thank you so much. And how can people find you and reach out to you and learn more from you?

[00:25:58] Paula: Yes. Well, you can come over and [00:26:00] visit me on my website, which is paulamaidens. com. I hang out on Instagram, which is paulamaidensconsulting is my handle over there.

[00:26:06] Come over, have a chat, jump in the DMs. I've got lots of freebies that you can download, um, you know, from hiring and leadership tips and on all the things. So come over and have a look at some of the resources. Reach out to me if you want to have a conversation, I'd love to talk to you.

[00:26:18] Mel: That's great. Thank you, Paula.

[00:26:19] And we've put all those links in the show notes as well. So you can grab those easily, but, highly recommend you check out Paula's, uh, Instagram, LinkedIn, all of the above. She shares so much good advice and she is an absolute gem of a human as well. Paula, thanks for joining us on the podcast today.

[00:26:35] Paula: My pleasure.

[00:26:35] Thanks so much for having me. Thank you.