[00:00:00] Mel: Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm Mel Loi, and in this show, I'll give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights you can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business, and never looked back.

[00:00:32] Mel: These days I use my 20 plus years of experience to guide organizations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, auntie to 12 nieces and nephews, a gym owner, group fitness instructor, yoga teacher, and a bunch of other things as well. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and insightful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:00:56] Mel: Hi everyone and welcome back to a brand new episode of the [00:01:00] podcast. An absolute delight to have you tuning in today and as always a big shout out to those of you who have already taken the time to rate and review the show. Your support means Everything. And if you haven't yet, could you do me a favor?

[00:01:15] Mel: Just take 30 seconds to rate and review the podcast in your app. It helps me to know people are listening and interested in what I'm sharing, but also it feeds that pesky little algorithm we're all battling against and means more people can see the show in their feed and learn just like you're doing.

[00:01:34] Mel: So moving on, today's episode is a goodie as I'm talking all things visual comms with the expert herself, Hayley Langsdorf. Now, if you haven't heard of Hayley, you're going to want to connect with her after listening to this. She is the self described chief doodler at Thoughts Drawn Out, a creative consultancy powered by the art and science of illustrated storytelling and human centered design.

[00:01:57] Mel: Through her work as a facilitator [00:02:00] and designer, Hayley has helped unleash the colorful stories within some of Australia's largest organizations. She has a winding career through corporate communication, transformational change, innovation, and experience design. And along that way, Hayley's trusty markers have very rarely left her side.

[00:02:19] Mel: She is obsessed with visual storytelling, to say the least. Having written a book, delivered a TEDx talk, and she's created numerous courses on the topic. If you check out Hayley on Instagram or LinkedIn or YouTube, you'll see examples of her incredible work. I've put the links in the show notes. Those of you who follow me on the socials know I draw a lot of doodles too, and it's actually Hayley who taught me how.

[00:02:44] Mel: So today you're learning from the best in the business. In my interview with Hayley, we chat all things, visual comms, why it's so powerful, how you can build some of those skills and how to use visuals really simply in your own communication to tell a better story. [00:03:00] It's a really great conversation full of cool bits of advice from Hayley.

[00:03:03] Mel: And I really hope it inspires you to have a play with more visuals in your own communication. And if you do, I'd love to see some examples if you're brave enough to share them with me. Anyway, that's enough for me. Let's get to the interview. Here's Hayley.

[00:03:18] Mel: Hayley, welcome to the show!

[00:03:21] Hayley: Thank you for having me. I'm so stoked to be here.

[00:03:24] Mel: I'm excited you're here too.

[00:03:26] Mel: So tell us a little bit about you. What's, what's Hayley's story?

[00:03:32] Hayley: Hayley has a crazy story, but most great stories are crazy. Uh, so I am the chief doodler at Thoughts Drawn Out, which is a small creative agency focused on visual storytelling. And human centered design and kind of bringing those things together to help people find, draw, and share their stories.

[00:03:53] Mel: That's awesome. And like, that's a very unique kind of business idea [00:04:00] too. How did you get there? I'm sure not, you probably didn't start off your career thinking I'm one day going to be the chief doodler.

[00:04:11] Hayley: It's, uh, Again, by accident, the way most great things happen. Um, no, I have always had a fascination and love for storytelling. I always wanted to be a writer. I studied English literature and journalism at uni and found my way into a corporate comms career. Um,

[00:04:31] Mel: We are living parallel lives, my friend. I also did journalism and English literature.

[00:04:36] Mel: I threw in some politics as well, just for the fun of it. Yeah.

[00:04:40] Hayley: Well, well see. I had a minor in theater studies, so

[00:04:43] Mel: there you go.

[00:04:45] Hayley: Um, so I think I just found my way into corporate comms and then you're in that whole world of... the corporate environment and just the people's stuff. So I was able to kind of have roles in comms, in learning and development, in change [00:05:00] management, um, customer experience, experience design, kind of all of those things that were about understanding humans and how humans move through the world.

[00:05:10] Hayley: Uh, and kind of along the way through all of that. Uh, I just kind of found that pictures work when you want to convey a message, when you want to help people connect with something. So I've always been a bit of a doodler, um, you know, in the margins of notebooks, um, and I would take quite visual notes, like if I listened to a guest speaker or I went to a lunch or a conference or something, I would always kind of take quite visual notes. And people started asking me for copies of my notes and then people started inviting me to things, to take notes and I kind of went, wow, this is, this is a thing.

[00:05:44] Hayley: Um, and it turns out there is, there are people that do this for a career, this whole visual note taking thing. And as soon as I learned that I was like, what am I going to do? Um, and I instantly kind of started Thoughts [00:06:00] Drawn Out and just kind of put it out to the universe that this is what I want to do.

[00:06:05] Mel: That's awesome. So tell us exactly for those of you, for those out there who aren't aware of what you do, how would you describe it?

[00:06:14] Hayley: Yeah. So the most part is very much around live illustration. So it's about. Uh, listening to content, observing, processing what people are saying, doing, sharing; uh, translating that into stories on a page that are made up of both words and pictures.

[00:06:33] Hayley: So they kind of bring both of those languages together, um, and kind of create a visual summary in a pictorial form that captures - it might be a conference, a workshop um, a keynote address - it could be any of those things. Then you can also pick up that same skill set and it doesn't have to be live and in real time.

[00:06:54] Hayley: So you can then use those same skills to process information out of [00:07:00] notes or PowerPoint presentations. You can take what could be a 20 page, uh, word heavy document and make it a single illustrated strategy map.

[00:07:10] Mel: So what exactly, makes that so powerful? Why is visual communication such a powerful tool?

[00:07:18] Hayley: I think humans are really wired for visual communications, this kind of; there's three elements that come into play there because visual storytelling is really the sweet spot is when you bring together, sensemaking or pattern finding, uh, the visual aspect and the storytelling aspect. And it's those, the convergence of those three things is, is where the real powerful stuff sits.

[00:07:42] Hayley: So our brains are wired for pattern finding; it kind of stems back to a bit of a survival mechanism that you needed to be able to quickly scan an environment and rapidly, uh, notice the patterns of predators. You know, you need to be able to see the [00:08:00] eyes of the animal that are about to leap out and eat you.

[00:08:03] Hayley: So we're very good at scanning through random content and finding patterns. And we love to find patterns. Our brains just work that way. And then when you bring in the visual aspect of that, I mean, we use more than 50% of our brain in visual processing. We have, of all of the sensory receptors that we have, more than 70% of them are connected to vision.

[00:08:27] Hayley: So it means we can gain the sense of a visual scene in less than a tenth of a second. So we can process visual information faster than anything else.

[00:08:37] Mel: That's incredible.

[00:08:38] Hayley: And then when you like, we love to hear a narrative arc when, when there's a speaker telling a story, we literally start to mirror, um, their neural patterns. Um, and, and our dopamine levels rise, like we just, we, we really tap into story. It's a connection point. So like those three things are just - [00:09:00] they're so powerful and they're just how we're put together as humans. Yeah.

[00:09:03] Mel: Yeah, and I love what you said there about the power of story as well. I think I talk in some of my workshops about, you know, if you look at a TEDx talk, for example, or a TED talk - some of those researchers could get up there and just say, this is what I analyzed.

[00:09:17] Mel: Here's the data. These are my findings. And put you to sleep. What they do so well is tell a story and weave those facts into it and tell us why they're important and help us imagine those facts in our everyday life in our own context. That's to me, that's the power of storytelling. It actually A, keeps you awake, but B, it actually helps it resonate with you.

[00:09:41] Mel: And as you say, you mix that with visuals and kapow, like. That all works just so beautifully.

[00:09:47] Hayley: Yeah. And the story in that, in that example, the story is the bit that you remember out of that. So like, they can give you all of these facts and figures and you'll go, Oh yeah, there was a percentage around that.

[00:09:57] Hayley: Maybe it was 50%. I don't know. I can't [00:10:00] remember, but there was a story about this person. Like that's the bit that will imprint, um, because you can follow that narrative arc and you'll recall it.

[00:10:08] Mel: Yeah. I love that. And with the sketchnoting, especially the live stuff, you know, how do your clients use that afterwards? So you've created this beautiful artwork and it's obviously very bespoke to them and what they discussed. How do you find they use that afterwards?

[00:10:25] Hayley: I'm always amazed to find the new ways that people do use them, which is really cool. So, uh, we will be able to take the straight artifacts as I've made them and make them into further things.

[00:10:38] Hayley: So sometimes we break them down and rebuild them as animations. So they can kind of replay the story of that event and share it with a broader audience. Uh, we've used them, kind of built them into a conversation guide so that maybe if it was leaders at a conference, they can take that visual and some, um, questions and prompts and [00:11:00] go back and have a great conversation with their team.

[00:11:02] Mel: That's an excellent idea, love that.

[00:11:03] Hayley: And it's a perfect vehicle. Um, I've seen them just, uh, produced into lovely, things on display, like put in frames or printed on large canvases and hung in foyers. I love seeing that just so they get to live on as this reminder. Um, but I also see people just put them in really interesting places onto mugs and mouse mats and all kinds of things.

[00:11:26] Mel: Of course they did.

[00:11:27] Hayley: But the power of it is that, um, yes, it was created to capture a single event in a particular point in time, but... it really helps the message live on.

[00:11:39] Mel: That sticky learning, right? Like, yeah, I love that.

[00:11:43] Hayley: Yes, you can look at it well down the track. You can look at that same sketchnote. And I like to call them visual time machines because you kind of look at it and you go, I remember that bit. I remember when they said that. And I remember that person.

[00:11:55] Hayley: And it kind of just takes you right back to that event.

[00:11:58] Mel: Yeah, that's brilliant. I've never [00:12:00] thought about mouse mats, but maybe I should, I don't know. I don't know. Um, so, okay, obviously not everybody is an artist like you are. So how do we start to build those skills? What are some of your top tips for getting started?

[00:12:18] Hayley: Yeah, I think I have never really described myself as an artist either. I think I have learned some processes and I have, um, kind of a bank of things that I have, uh, created systems for drawing in really simple ways and I use them on repeat.

[00:12:36] Hayley: So I think that's my first tip is that it's the drawings that accompany the words; don't ever have to be complex. Keep it simple and build very simple shapes into simple icons that you can repeat time and time again. So if you have a great way to very simply draw a light bulb, that one light bulb could mean 20 different [00:13:00] things.

[00:13:00] Hayley: So you don't need to be able to draw as many things as you think you do. And your drawings never have to work on their own. That's a great thing about visual note taking or sketch noting is that it gets to have words and pictures together and they're in these little groups. So, if you ever draw something and you don't think it looks like what you intended - you write the words beside it, and then it is what you say it is.

[00:13:25] Hayley: Because we come back to that pattern finding thing in your audience's brain, they want your picture to work. They're looking for the pattern to work. So if you go, this blob equals tree, they go, great, I get it, that's a tree. So, you know, you can just kind of, uh, not be as harsh on yourself in terms of how realistic your pictures have to be.

[00:13:45] Hayley: Just keep it simple and use pictures and words together.

[00:13:49] Mel: Love that. And of course, visual communication isn't just drawings and doodles, right? It's photos, videos, anything you can see, I guess, [00:14:00] and process. It's the PowerPoints we put together. Do you have any thoughts around what makes those things work as well?

[00:14:07] Hayley: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's some really basic underlying principles that make pictures work the way they do in the human brain. And it's just kind of ways that we, that we all process the symbolism behind it. And again, it's not complex. It can just be literally in how you choose the shape to put content or information in.

[00:14:30] Hayley: So we just, we have an understanding that if something is in a circle that a circle has motion, it has its cycles. It has rotation. It's so we kind of, we see information that sits in a circle as having some life to it, having some motion, whereas a square is a very solid flat, you know, container, it has an inside and an outside. And then a triangle, which we use as the universal symbol for [00:15:00] change because you cannot move up or down a triangle without it getting bigger or smaller.

[00:15:05] Hayley: So like change is built into the shape. So if you want to kind of depict something getting smaller or larger, changing over time, a triangle makes sense. And that stuff is just, that's how we process. Um, information. So similarly, with the colors that we use, uh, the lines that we choose, whether they are sharp and pointy or curved, whether we're using lots of bright, bold colors or a very kind of dark, muted, you know, we'll give a moody tone.

[00:15:37] Hayley: So there's all of that symbolism that we draw from in the choices that we make, regardless of whether you're drawing the picture or not.

[00:15:45] Mel: Yeah, I love those tips. So shapes, colors, lines, it doesn't matter whether you're in PowerPoint or Canva or drawing something, those principles all still apply, right?

[00:15:54] Hayley: Like, yeah, those are universal. And things about kind of proximity of [00:16:00] how you put things together. So, are the things on your page the same size because they have an equal standing? Or do you want to show one is more important? And the other, you know, our parent child relationship, are they on the level playing field? Are they, what's the relationship? Are they close together? Are they far apart? So just kind of thinking symbolically around how you are placing objects on a page can be powerful too.

[00:16:22] Mel: Those are some really good tips because I'm sure we've all seen the PowerPoints and the Canva slides that there's just a lot going on, but you're not story sure what the story is of that particular visual too. It's hard to make sense of immediately. Sometimes not at all.

[00:16:39] Hayley: I'm sure your pattern finding brain is making up something. And as is your audience; they're going to fill in the gaps because that's just how our brain works. So you may as well be a little bit intentional with what you want the story. Um, to be that they're taking away because chances are they will pick up on that same symbolism that you embed.

[00:16:59] Mel: Yeah, I love [00:17:00] that. So what are some of the ways that our listeners, because you know, there's people here who are listening to the show who are professional communicators, others who just communicate as part of their jobs anyway. What are some ways that they could just start using more visual communication, in their work?

[00:17:17] Hayley: Yeah. So I think within our corporate workplaces, uh, we have so many platforms where being able to bring in a visual component works so well, um, because we're using emails and intranets and online chat and all of these sorts of vehicles for reaching people where, uh, I mean, we tend to go to the words in the first instance, but all of those platforms have the opportunity to go, what does that look like?

[00:17:45] Hayley: And I think just kind of asking that question every time of going, yeah, this is the message, but what does that look like? Um, and then bringing that aspect in is really powerful. And I think the other place that it fits perfectly is [00:18:00] visual storytelling is, it's a verb, really. So the best place to embed it is where you want people to have conversations.

[00:18:10] Hayley: So if you're wanting leaders to communicate with their teams. That's the great vehicle to bring it in because it's going to help that leader have a better conversation with their team. Don't just send them speaking points, send them a map. Send them a visual process, send them something that they can look at together with their team and make sense of together. Um, that's the place where it really comes to life.

[00:18:35] Mel: That's a great idea. One of the things I love doing is creating a one page summary of a complete comms strategy or workplace giving strategy, whatever it is. Just, and just in Canva A3. And again, it's just colors and shapes and just really simple because I do find yeah, you can provide the 20 page strategy pack.

[00:18:57] Mel: But who is reading those 20 pages? [00:19:00] Realistically, they don't have time for that. They just don't have time for that. But if you can summarize it in a page - A, that I think that it resonates more quickly, people just start to get get how it all fits together. Uh, but also it's that thing that they take around with them, right? Like, like your sketch notes. I take that to my meeting. I take that. I put it up on my wall. I, I. It's my visual reference point a lot of the time.

[00:19:21] Hayley: And I can wrap my hands around it and my brain around it because it's one page. Yes, not like it's not this kind of crazy thing that I would have to keep referring back to to make sure I've got point 7B correct. No, it's there. I can grab hold of it.

[00:19:38] Hayley: I think what's great about a map or one page as well is that. Uh, you can get some chronology happening. So rather than showing something as a single frame or a single point in time, um, rather than just talking about we are here now, you can say, well, we were there, we're here now, but we're going there or, you know, you, you pick where you [00:20:00] want to be focusing in that narrative pattern, but. Taking something out of a single frame and giving it arc - allows people to really feel like they're in it.

[00:20:09] Mel: I get that context for why the organization or the team or the leader is choosing to do something for a reason. Like it's not just a nice idea that someone's had, there's actually a method to the madness almost.

[00:20:22] Hayley: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:25] Mel: So can you share, because I know people love the practical stuff, are there any tools that you'd recommend people just have a play with? I mean, we've mentioned PowerPoint, that's one thing. What other tools might people want to have a play with?

[00:20:38] Hayley: Yeah, so, uh, PowerPoint, I think it gets a bad rap, um, because it's, it's not the software's fault that we use it to store our bullet points. It has the capacity to do so much more and I use it a lot.

[00:20:51] Mel: That's very true.

[00:20:52] Hayley: So, uh, think about how you really use PowerPoint to its full advantage. Um, [00:21:00] nothing beats good old pen on paper. Um, as far as I'm concerned, you can do so much with just, you know, a black marker pen. I always have one within reach, um, and a blank white page.

[00:21:13] Hayley: Uh, you can be using that to... grab a picture down, to take some notes. You can scan that and then that can be in your PowerPoint or in your communication, very simply. Uh, if you're the type of person that writes things down so you don't forget them, start bringing visual components into that. Um, and so that you kind of build up that that practice of making information visual. Uh, and then I think the natural transition then once you've played around with, uh, using pen on paper in this way is, uh, to, to take it digital.

[00:21:49] Hayley: Um, you can kind of ditch the notebook altogether and have an iPad and an Apple pencil and be able to create all the pictures under the sun with just those two tools.

[00:21:59] Mel: Yeah, that's [00:22:00] brilliant and we use Procreate and, and it's a great tool. I noticed Canva has now got the ability to do drawing as well. Uh, still pretty much in its infancy from what I gather, but even like I'll find, uh, I'll use the notes app on my iPad if I'm just out and about and need to quickly scribble something, cause you can draw on that too. It has some functionality to it as well, which is great.

[00:22:23] Hayley: Yeah, it's so accessible. There's so many places you can do it, even some of the online, uh, collaboration spaces like Miro and Mural have a whiteboard function so that in addition to just the good old fashioned post it note, you can actually be, uh, creating pictures in there as well.

[00:22:39] Mel: Yeah. Those are some really good tools. Thank you. Well, Hayley, we covered a lot of ground today, but there's three questions I like to ask every guest who comes on this podcast. Are you ready for those?

[00:22:50] Hayley: I'm ready.

[00:22:51] Mel: All right. Lightning round. What's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?[00:23:00]

[00:23:02] Hayley: Okay, so it's probably not what you intended when you asked that question, but my answer is going to be don't hover the cursor over the send button while you're reviewing comms.

[00:23:13] Mel: No, it's good advice.

[00:23:17] Hayley: I had the experience of sending out an important communication from an executive and I was proofreading my work and a teammate walked past and just very, you know, playfully gave me a punch on the shoulder to say, "Hey, you're ready to come to lunch?"

[00:23:33] Hayley: And I hit send. So I think just, you know, give yourself the space to review things. Um, write it out quickly first and then take the time to review without the pressure of the finger over there, over the cursor, because you never know when someone's going to bump it.

[00:23:56] Mel: Apparently so! And it's great advice. You know, it's one of the things I sort of is one of my mantras as well, is the incubation period - Write it, walk away, come back to it later. Just [00:24:00] fresh eyes. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:24:08] Hayley: I would love to see more conversational voice. We fall into the safety net of, uh, formal speak and jargon and acronyms. And I think what people, the people say the message and then they say, Oh, what I mean by that is. And that's the real message. Like they just need to cut to that version. So I think the, the more we could stop, you know, 'leveraging synergies', uh, the better.

[00:24:39] Mel: Yes. Picking the low hanging fruit and circling back to the parking lot. Yeah.

[00:24:44] Hayley: Put a pin in that. Yep. Right.

[00:24:48] Mel: That's the thing. We're talking with humans, not robots. And yeah, let's, let's talk like we would talk at the barbecue. I call it the barbecue chat, like just.

[00:24:56] Hayley: And I think when you let yourself be human and use the words that you would use, [00:25:00] you tend to go to, uh, really unique metaphors or you'll use a unique story to illustrate a point because you draw from your own experience. And that's the thing that's actually going to make it great. Not the bit that sounds like what everyone else wrote.

[00:25:15] Mel: Yeah. I love that. And final question. Who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:25:22] Hayley: So many people, you would be one of them. Uh, my all time favorite would be, uh, you know, Dr. Seuss books, um, contains all of the wisdom that you need in those pages.

[00:25:35] Hayley: Um, I do like to just kind of go to a variety of sources. Um, but I do tend to lean towards interesting characters and storytellers in terms of how to tackle it and people who are really uniquely themselves. Um, you know, I have like some, some YouTubers and things like that, that I think have great personality and I will look to them because they just show up as so authentically them. [00:26:00] And I think that's what makes them great.

[00:26:02] Mel: That's awesome. Well, Hayley, how can people learn from you?

[00:26:08] Hayley: I would love them to learn from me. I love teaching people this stuff. Uh, nothing lights me up more than when someone who says they can't draw, draws their first figure and just the, the way their face lights up. I live for that. So I do teach, uh, online workshops, um, as well as I have a bunch of online courses, um, on my website, and then I put some stuff up on, uh, the Thoughts Drawn Out YouTube channel as well. So, so many places to come and find it. So please do.

[00:26:38] Mel: Amazing. And we'll put all those links in the show notes as well, so people can find Hayley very easily and, uh, hopefully learn from you like I did. Yeah, it's definitely a skill that has... changed the way I communicate, but also given me more of an edge in a very competitive market as well. So I'm very appreciative that I, I invested in learning from [00:27:00] you, Hayley. So thank you so much for being so generous with your learning and thank you so much for being generous with your time today.

[00:27:06] Mel: It was great to have you on the show.

[00:27:08] Hayley: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I had a ball.

[00:27:11] Mel: Awesome. Thanks Hayley. Thanks.