[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Mel: Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm Mel Loi, and in this show, I'll give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights you can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business, and never looked back.

[00:00:32] Mel: These days I use my 20 plus years of experience to guide organizations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, auntie to 12 nieces and nephews, a gym owner, group fitness instructor, yoga teacher, and a bunch of other things as well. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and insightful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:00:56] Mel: Hi everyone, and welcome back to the show. I [00:01:00] can't believe we're at episode 30 already, that's 30 weeks of sharing all the things, and there's still so much more to come, so thank you to everyone who has taken the time to rate and review the show, share your feedback with me directly, and who has shared this show with others.

[00:01:16] Mel: It's great to see it's adding value, so thank you. Speaking of adding value, this week's episode is full of it, and it's also something that's very close to my heart. That is communicating with neurodiverse audience members. I do want to say, I personally believe we're all neurodiverse. If you think about it.

[00:01:36] Mel: No two brains are the same, so we are all diverse. So, we're all on a spectrum of neurodiversity, some at the more extreme ends than the others, which is totally okay. And why this topic is close to my heart is for a number of reasons. Firstly, I have ADHD. I was first diagnosed a couple of years ago. And that was a huge validation for me, realizing I'm not, [00:02:00] in fact, stupid or flaky.

[00:02:01] Mel: My brain just can't do certain things and that's okay. But from a comms perspective, what that does mean is that for me to be interested and stay engaged, things have to be really interesting. So storytelling works really well for me. Long meetings do not. Secondly, I have a number of family members and friends who, uh, have autism spectrum disorder.

[00:02:25] Mel: And again, this means different things in terms of communication, being very clear and concise with communication, avoiding nuances and avoiding subtleties is really important. For some of my extended family members, sarcasm is a no go because it just doesn't resonate. And my husband is also a special needs teacher and has worked in special ed for more than 20 years.

[00:02:47] Mel: So I've learned a lot from him over the years on this topic. Ultimately, what I have learned is to communicate with kindness. I've said it a million times on this podcast that we [00:03:00] all communicate differently. The way we give out information and the way we receive it varies from person to person. So whether you have ASD, ADHD, Anything else in between or whether you don't, we still need to adapt our communication to meet the needs of our audience.

[00:03:18] Mel: And that's an act of kindness because we want people to understand. And we also can't take it personally when it doesn't resonate or when the communication we receive comes in a way that's unexpected or doesn't make sense to us. We probably should approach that with a sense of curiosity instead.

[00:03:34] Mel: So in many ways, communicating for the neurodiverse in our audience is actually just communicating better for all... in the world, according to Mel. So that's, as I said, the world, according to Mel, I thought I'd actually interview an expert instead. So this week I've interviewed Kylee Leota and Kylee is the founder of Elements for Success, a global organization, delivering transformational experiences to [00:04:00] individuals, teams, and businesses.

[00:04:02] Mel: Her services include psychological safety, high performance teams coaching, leadership, change management, and she designs bespoke programs as well. And you can find out more about Kylee services via the links in the show notes. Kylee’s background is actually in the education sector. She spent 20 years working in education, including leadership roles in schools and at the regional level.

[00:04:27] Mel: So from that experience, Kylee wanted to empower and have a positive impact further than just the education sector. And she now works collaboratively across sectors, including complex behavior, trauma, and early intervention, as well as transition to work. So this is why I thought she was the perfect person to interview on this topic of communication for neurodiverse audience members.

[00:04:50] Mel: And I'm so excited by what she shares in this episode. It's full of great tips. I hope you enjoy, and I hope you learn a lot as well. And if you have any of your own thoughts or [00:05:00] feedback, please get in touch. But for now, let's get into it.

[00:05:03] Mel: Hi, Kylee. Welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter.

[00:05:07] Kylee: Hi, Mel. So glad to be doing this with you this afternoon.

[00:05:10] Mel: And I'm excited to have you on the show. So for our listeners who don't know much about you, tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:05:17] Mel: What do you do? How did you come to be where you are today?

[00:05:21] Kylee: Yeah. So thanks so much. I'm a founder and chief vision officer of Elements. for success, um, a business that I've had for a couple of years now. And I actually am a multi business owner. So I actually have three businesses, elements for success, which is leadership and high performance teams coaching.

[00:05:36] Kylee: But I also do self leadership coaching. And particularly in that neurodiversity space. Uh, I have an events and venue hire in Mansfield in Brisbane. So if anyone's ever looking for a place to come and either work as a board, uh, in a boardroom, or they're wanting to run a little. I'm not ready for the big stages yet.

[00:05:54] Kylee: Uh, more than welcome to come along. And then I'm just kicking off my third business, which is elements for growth, [00:06:00] where the vision is to show people that with the right supports, anyone can grow. And that looks like having, uh, psychs, OTs, physios, speeches, everyone on site. So families have a one stop shop or families or individuals, but also running some program delivery to help people grow in those areas that they need.

[00:06:19] Mel: That's so exciting. And just that idea of having that one stop shop for people is huge. I know from first hand experience, having to go to about five different places at five different times to try and get what you need.

[00:06:33] Kylee: That's massive. And when we're already in distress because we know that something's not right or we're not coping with something, and then having to have the cognitive load, to organize and do all of these things. You know, I just, I looked at where the problem was and what was a solution that might help individuals and families, you know, mitigate some of that exhaustion and fatigue that they're all going to already going through.

[00:06:54] Kylee: So, and then, you know, I also do keynotes around, uh, understanding [00:07:00] psychological safety, because for me, that's that foundational piece around doing, uh, the brave work and having courageous conversations. So I do that personally and professionally, and then also helping people understand how their brain works, to increase high performance.

[00:07:15] Mel: That's awesome. And how did you get into this work? Because that's, it's quite interesting work, but I bet you didn't start out your life thinking, I'm going to start an events business at the same time, do executive coaching and help families navigate crises.

[00:07:31] Kylee: Yeah. Uh, so I, ever since I was a little girl, I wanted to be a teacher.

[00:07:36] Kylee: And so when I first wanted to be a teacher, I wanted to be a music teacher, but you have to have musical talent for that.

[00:07:41] Mel: Yeah. That's kind of crucial. Yeah.

[00:07:43] Kylee: Um, but I did a work experience even when I was in high school and it was working in that disability space. So my background is over 20 years working in disability, complex behaviour and trauma. So I worked in special school, primary, secondary. I also was a deputy of inclusion, a deputy of [00:08:00] mainstream.

[00:08:00] Kylee: I was an advisory teacher, but I also worked in regional office where I oversaw 72 schools and how they catered for diverse learners. And from there, one of the things that I most loved about that was building capacity, not only with the students and the families, but with the staff to be able to navigate what that looks like, particularly in complexity.

[00:08:21] Mel: Yeah. Right. So when did you make the transition out of education into doing your own thing?

[00:08:26] Kylee: Like so I was one of those really cool, smart people that in the middle of COVID decided to leave a government job as a single mom of three kids to start my own business that I'd never done before. Sounds awesome. Yeah. Look, um, someone asked me once on a podcast, what's the scariest thing that you ever did?

[00:08:42] Kylee: And I said, that was my answer, um, to leave a full time government job. I had a permanent income, but I, it no longer aligned to my true north. And I realized that I had to pivot, and I looked for all the bits of the job that I loved, which was empowering and building capacity [00:09:00] in leaders, and developing high performance and also supporting families navigate complexity. Um, and I left behind all of the stuff that I didn't like, like timetables, non contact rosters, uh, finding 15 relief staff before 7am, all of those kind of things. So I chose the bit that I loved and left behind the bit that I didn't.

[00:09:19] Kylee: So now I get to do stuff I love every day.

[00:09:22] Mel: That's amazing. So good. Well, well done you. So let's get stuck in today's topic. We are talking about communication in terms of how we communicate with people who are neurodiverse. And can you perhaps explain to us what do we actually mean by neurodiversity?

[00:09:40] Kylee: Yeah, so when we're talking about neuros brain, right, and diversity is different. So it's just about different ways and different lenses in which people's brains filter and receive information. And so we often talk about neurodiversity in spaces like autism spectrum disorder. [00:10:00] And more recently, there's a lot more.

[00:10:02] Kylee: Uh, information and a lot more people getting diagnoses, particularly around ADHD. But really, that diverse way of thinking is probably the best way to explain it. Because the way the brain is wired for information, we look at things called executive functioning skills.

[00:10:18] Kylee: And we know that with some neurodiversity that's well researched that people with neurodiversity have some areas of challenge like so for example, um, the evidence suggests that people with ADHD can have trouble or more likely to have trouble with impulse control.

[00:10:34] Mel: I can attest to that.

[00:10:35] Kylee: So, if we can create some common language and then we can talk about where we do things well or with things that we might need support in, then it might be easier for people to get their head around. As opposed to, oh, only people in neurodiversity need this, well, no, not necessarily. But you, things you might see, um, and again with ADHD or autism, particularly under stress, is trouble with task initiation.

[00:10:55] Kylee: So getting started; the old procrastination and it's not [00:11:00] because and we get into this trouble particularly in work where maybe people think we're underperforming or we're not completing. But really, it's because we're under stress and the executive functioning part of our brain that is not coping at this particular moment - is task initiation, prioritising and planning, organization, time management, you know, so under stress our brains do different things.

[00:11:24] Kylee: Uh, so we've got a number of areas of executive functioning. So flexible thinking is well researched as being a challenge in, uh, people with ASD. But in actual fact, it's something that goes along for me when I'm feeling particularly stressed. So it's one of the things that goes out the window.

[00:11:39] Kylee: So I like to think of myself as a particularly open minded, flexible thinker. I mean, I did complex behavior for over 20 years, so I was the on the go solution.

[00:11:48] Kylee: But when I'm really stressed, I can be quite rigid. I like things a certain way, I don't like to consider other people's opinions, but it's just well documented that people will have difficulty with flexible [00:12:00] thinking in when they have a diagnosis of ASD, generally.

[00:12:04] Mel: So for those who may not be aware, what do you mean by executive functioning?

[00:12:08] Mel: What does that actually mean?

[00:12:11] Kylee: So it just really means the way that our brain processes information. You know, there is all this research and it's a bit varied, but we, uh, our brains process. You know, in the 20, 30, 40 thousands of pieces of information every day. That's a lot of information. And so, it's our brain's organizational system.

[00:12:29] Mel: So when we talk about communication in this context, so for example, somebody on your team or a client that you're working with may have Autism Spectrum Disorder. What are some of the communication, nuances we should be thinking about when we're communicating with people who may have ASD?

[00:12:51] Kylee: Yeah, so often it's really checking in that state of self regulation. So, um, often people will work better if they know in advance [00:13:00] there's a time. You know, don't, don't do the old spontaneous hijacking and expect them to process information very well. Often people with the autism spectrum like to know, hey, we're having a meeting at 9am on Monday, um, so that they can feel prepared for that.

[00:13:14] Kylee: Having someone who's a safe person for them to unpack their thoughts because we don't want people to be really dysregulated and, and from that impulse control just blurt things out because they're having trouble regulating. So who's a safe person in the organization?

[00:13:31] Kylee: And then we also looked at mapping out a, um, a week planner of what they need to be able to do their tasks. So helping with that planning and prioritization, knowing who to go to if they're struggling, who's their lifeline support person, and also topping and tailing that with activities to help them transition.

[00:13:48] Kylee: So there's no meetings booked at 9am. We've got half an hour buffer there to sit and regulate. Now if we don't need it, great, we can go off and do another task. But now we've got it already built into our day. So we [00:14:00] don't have to try and crisis manage. It's all about being proactive rather than reactive.

[00:14:05] Kylee: And at the end of the day, having that checkout process where they can. Check out with the right people rather than take it home and then take that dysregulation into their home environment, because they're feeling really overloaded.

[00:14:17] Mel: And I think one of the stereotypes of autism is that people who are on the autism spectrum fail to pick up social cues and can be quite direct, but it is a spectrum, isn't it? There are people who, who, who are like that. They do struggle with social cues. And so you do need to be a lot clearer and a lot more direct with some people, but it's not the case for everybody.

[00:14:42] Kylee: No, a hundred percent. And also, you know, there's a, there's a huge variation between people who had access to early supports. So if you got your diagnosis early, and you had access to therapeutic support - you may have had exposure to the training that enables you to do that.

[00:14:58] Kylee: So it's a bit of checking in [00:15:00] and again, safe people. Like I have a client that rings me and goes, "Hey, this situation happened. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right. Can I just unpack that with you?" And then we go through that.

[00:15:11] Kylee: I do a lot of psychological safety work. Um, and that is there's four stages of psychological safety.

[00:15:17] Kylee: One of them is inclusion. I belong here. So even with a diagnosis, I feel like I belong in my organization. The second one is, I'm a learner, so this is learner safety. So particularly in reference to supports, it's, I may not know what works, but I have a safe space to learn what works and doesn't work for me, also for my colleagues and, and stuff like that.

[00:15:39] Kylee: Third one is contribution, so being able to take input in terms of people, the way that maybe people give information, um, some of that directness.

[00:15:48] Kylee: So, yeah. Uh, so there's all sorts of variations on the spectrum of what that can look like and sound like and feel like. But I think that learner safety piece is so vital when people are navigating [00:16:00] neurodiversity for themselves. And they might be new to the organization. So what may have worked in this organization with these people may not have worked in this organization.

[00:16:08] Mel: It reminds me, I've got sort of four C's of effective communication and two of those I think really apply in this case. One is clarity. So, you know, it's good to be clear anyway in your communication.

[00:16:20] Mel: Doesn't matter if you have ADHD, ASD, whoever you're talking to, clarity is kindness as Brené Brown says. So, you know, I think in some ways. By catering for our neurodiverse friends, we're actually just being better communicators overall. And that's one of them. The other one is considerate, you know, thinking about the context that people are operating in, their experiences, their backgrounds.

[00:16:43] Mel: And yes, somebody might be quite direct with you and have, uh, you know, lacks some social cues and those sorts of things. But that doesn't, that I think deserves kindness in your communication rather than, taking that personally.

[00:16:58] Kylee: Yeah, and it's really [00:17:00] hard when someone's really direct to you. Because you've got to be grounded and understand yourself and your own triggers first, if, if you know that you're around someone who's quite direct. So I have some clients that are quite direct, and it's been, first of all, getting to know them, and then once you know that that's not their intention.

[00:17:19] Kylee: So, I talk a lot about intention versus impact, right? So, people are sometimes, their intention is not to be direct, but they can come across very direct. So, circling back and saying, "Hey, I noticed the other day you were quite direct when you communicated that. I just want to check in with you about what you meant."

[00:17:38] Kylee: You know, if you're not sure and most people in most instances are pretty open when you approach it in that way. It's not an attack, it's a, it's a checking in and that clarity piece that you were talking about earlier and you're doing it in a way that's kind and compassionate. So it's that seeking to understand kind of idea that Stephen Covey talks about.

[00:17:59] Mel: Hmm. [00:18:00] And so the other one that we were talking about, uh, and I'm diagnosed is ADHD. So for me, from a communication perspective, uh, it needs to be interesting or you've lost me. And this is where storytelling is really, is really helpful. But, I can also be, as you say, there's the impulsive side of it, but also apart from the tuning out, there's the impulsive side where I'll just get up and leave the room.

[00:18:25] Mel: Uh, cause I've just thought of something and I've got to go. Yeah, I do that thing right then and there, um, and part of that is -

[00:18:31] Kylee: Before it falls out of my brain.

[00:18:33] Mel: That's it, right? I've got to do that now or I will forget. So off I go and we're mid sentence. Yep. Uh, in your own experience working with your clients, what are some ways that we can communicate better to help include people with ADHD?

[00:18:47] Kylee: So, I think figuring out their learning style, um, is a really important thing. Checking in, and everyone's going to be a little bit different, but there's some really common things that I see. Having lists, [00:19:00] I often find people that I know with ADHD like the job list. They like the things that, so it's clear like you said, um, clear is kind. What are the things I have to do before the next time I get there? But also finding the balance between what's the right amount of information and what's too much information.

[00:19:16] Kylee: Mm-hmm. . So, and then I often find, you know, there's lots of things about making activities fun. So there's all these timers and apps you can download that are to a song, you know, making things fun, competitive, joy, all of that kind of stuff.

[00:19:29] Kylee: Um, and the other one I was just saying is I've got, you know, so I'm a reader as you can see behind me. Um, I, I like to nerd out. So some of my clients are really good if you send them a YouTube clip as opposed to a piece of text. Um, so just helping them understand themselves as learners, because most people have a lot of willingness to do - I don't think I've met any client that I work with anyway, that wakes up and says, "Oh my God, I really want to do a crappy job today."

[00:19:54] Kylee: But as a by product of not having the right skill in their you know, in their [00:20:00] toolbox, the right tools in the toolbox, they can stuff it up. So how do we help people without judgment, close that skill gap for them?

[00:20:08] Kylee: So often when someone's not doing something that you need them to do, there's a skill gap somewhere along the line and we have to help them close that skill gap. And so how do we do that? And it's helping them understand themselves as learners and then helping them access the information in a way that supports their learning style.

[00:20:26] Mel: So, yeah, I think this ties in very nicely with what I teach in my communications courses, which is really about adapting your communication style to meet, people's needs and whether or not, as I said earlier, you're on the autism spectrum or you have ADHD or any other kind of thing; everybody is different.

[00:20:45] Mel: Everybody learns differently, thinks differently, those sorts of things. But just for some people, we need to be much more considerate of that than others and, you know, creating safe space through our communication. Whether it's verbal, whether it's meetings, whether it's town halls, whether it's written [00:21:00] communication, videos, all those things, we have a real opportunity there.

[00:21:03] Mel: So, thank you so much for sharing all of that with us.

[00:21:07] Kylee: Thank you so much for having me. I'd love to, you know, if anyone needs any support in that space, I'd love to help anyone navigate that journey and particularly for the leaders that may have neurodiversity on their teams, right? So there's the people with neurodiversity themselves that are trying to navigate this journey.

[00:21:22] Mel: Love that. Well, Kylee, there's three questions that I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those?

[00:21:29] Kylee: Love it. Yes. Let's do it.

[00:21:32] Mel: Okay. Question number one. What's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:21:43] Kylee: Ooh, um, probably the piece around intention versus impact.

[00:21:49] Kylee: You can be really well meaning, so your intention is to be helpful, and you can still screw it up. Because the impact is that that person may not receive it in the way that you were attempting to deliver it.[00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Kylee: In Brene Brown fangirl language, that is the generosity, the G in braving, she talks about the fact that maybe people didn't necessarily intend for that, you know, giving people the benefit of the doubt that maybe it wasn't their intention, um, and being generous with our assumptions around their behavior.

[00:22:19] Kylee: But understanding that that doesn't excuse crappy behavior, but if we understand it may not be their intention, it allows me to circle back. I'm more likely to want to circle back with them to try to do the repair than if I think they were out to get me or they did it on purpose to upset me.

[00:22:34] Mel: Yeah, I love that.

[00:22:35] Mel: Intention versus impact.

[00:22:37] Kylee: Intention versus impact that has been game changing for me because particularly like I come from a long line of people pleasers, reforming I say reforming because I'm not sure if you ever reformed as a people pleaser. But we talk about; I always intend to be helpful like that's 100% my intention and sometimes people would - like, get upset and I'm like, how can you get upset with [00:23:00] someone being helpful?

[00:23:01] Kylee: But recognizing that whilst it was always my intention. Sometimes the impact was it wasn't received that way. So being able to hold space for that and check in rather than feel hurt or upset that maybe it's missed the mark and recognizing that we all see the world through a different lens, and I probably have a different communication preference to you, and that's okay.

[00:23:22] Mel: Question number two. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:23:32] Kylee: Um, I, I think probably if I had to pick one, I think I would like people to practice self awareness before they went into communicating.

[00:23:45] Kylee: So, if I am self aware that on this particular day, I might be struggling with being a bit open minded, then the way that I handle that communication, if I'm aware of it, might be I'm not going to make that decision right now, hey, can I get back to you, rather than making that no, or that [00:24:00] really rigid, maybe unhelpful decision around my communication.

[00:24:04] Kylee: In that moment, because I haven't been self aware to check myself before I went into that communication.

[00:24:08] Mel: Yeah, fair. And last question, who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:24:14] Kylee: My best friend and I, uh, uh, we have the same personality profile on the Enneagram. And we've done a lot of personal and self development work. We've been best friends since we were 15. And she's probably one of my trusted few, uh, in that space.

[00:24:27] Kylee: And she's the person that holds space for me unconditionally. So that's one person. Um, and Bosco, um, Bosco Anthony, who we both know through IABC. Uh, he's another trusted person for me, particularly as I'm navigating the business person.

[00:24:41] Kylee: And then I've really enjoyed, um, connecting with IABC. I really have enjoyed the people I've met in the room. They've been really good to talk to about different communication things as well. I've really enjoyed our conversations, Mel. Um, and then my kids.

[00:24:55] Kylee: Because my kids are my greatest teachers, and they kind of say it how it [00:25:00] is, um, and we do a lot of practice communication because, you know, Glennon Doyle has a quote that says, my children don't need me to save them, they need to watch me save myself. So, if I want to model good communication and problem solving, that's going to negate them. For me having to come and pick them up later down the track, right? And then, you know, Brene Brown, fangirl, um, and also Tasha Urick has a book called Insight and it's about self awareness and how that impacts our communication. So lots of people that I admire and inspire. Uh, to be.

[00:25:35] Mel: That's good! I think it's important to have a huge range of sources to draw on because everybody's got different ideas as well. Well, Kylee, thank you so much for your time and your words of wisdom this afternoon. Where can people find out more about you?

[00:25:52] Kylee: Yeah. So you can find me on my website, elements4success.com.au. I'm on LinkedIn as Elements for Success, but also [00:26:00] Kylee Leota, K Y L E E. L E O T A. I'm also on Insta and Facebook as Elements 4 Success.

[00:26:08] Mel: Fantastic. And we will pop some links in the show notes so that it's easy to find you as well. Kylee, thank you so much.

[00:26:15] Kylee: Perfect. Thank you so much for having me, Mel. I'm so grateful to be here.