[00:00:00] Mel: Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm Mel Loy and in this show, I'll give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights you can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business, and never looked back.

[00:00:32] Mel: These days I use my 20 plus years of experience to guide organizations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, auntie to 12 nieces and nephews, a gym owner, group fitness instructor, yoga teacher, and a bunch of other things as well. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and insightful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:00:56] Mel: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast. It's [00:01:00] an absolute pleasure to have your ears tuning into the show for another week. Now, October is mental health month here in Australia, so I thought it would be a great opportunity to talk about how communication can impact how we create.

[00:01:14] Mel: safe spaces to have conversations about mental health, particularly in the workplace. And it's even more fortuitous in a way that the theme for mental health month in 2023 is we all have a role to play. And it's really about encouraging people to think about ways we can connect with the people around us.

[00:01:34] Mel: Now, I am no expert in this space outside of my own experiences with managing my own mental health and with helping others both personally and professionally. So I thought for this episode, I would interview somebody who actually is much more of an expert in this space. And I'm really excited because I got to interview one of my favorite people, Cherie Canning.

[00:01:55] Mel: Now, if you are in Brisbane and you're a leader or a woman in business. There is [00:02:00] a good chance you've crossed paths with Cherie and that it was a very positive experience. Cherie is a passionate optimist. She's an avid traveler and the founder and director of Luminate Leadership. After almost two decades of leading teams and running development training at Flight Centre Travel Group, Cherie and her husband, Andy, were thrown that redundancy curve ball, courtesy of COVID, like many of us were.

[00:02:27] Mel: But it was then that Cherie knew she had to follow her passion of leadership development and Luminate Leadership was born. And Cherie talks a little bit more about that in our chat today. Cherie is passionate about creating training and development experiences that challenge people, inspire them, and give practical tools to create real life impact in their workplaces and lives.

[00:02:50] Mel: In today's episode, Cherie and I chat about the kind of impact communication can have on mental health in the workplace. Some of the ways to have respectful and meaningful [00:03:00] conversations around the topic. And we even touch on some lessons learned from the young children in our lives. It was a great chat and I've included a bunch of links in the show notes.

[00:03:09] Mel: You can check out Cherie's work and give her a follow. Speaking of Cherie, let's get amongst it. Here she is.

[00:03:17] Mel: Well, hi Cherie! Welcome to the show.

[00:03:20] Cherie: Thanks Mel. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:03:23] Mel: I'm very excited to have you on because I am a bit of a fangirl, not going to lie.

[00:03:27] Cherie: That's very kind. Thank you.

[00:03:29] Mel: So tell us a little bit about you. What do you do? How did you come to, to do what you do?

[00:03:34] Cherie: Yeah. Great. Um, so I founded a company actually almost the same time as your business, just about to be three years, uh, called Luminate Leadership. Um, and so I guess who am I though? Cherie Canning.

[00:03:47] Cherie: So I'm a, a mum, a wife and a founder of Luminate. Um, for me prior to COVID, is probably the significant part of this story where I'd been at Flight Centre for 17 years and I was in, uh, [00:04:00] leadership roles and some senior leadership. you know, kind of like regional manager style roles and leadership development.

[00:04:05] Cherie: And when COVID hit, both my husband, Andy, and I were both there and, um, we got stood down and I was on stand down for seven months. And in that time I knew all I wanted to do was the role that I'd previously been in at Flight Centre was leadership development. And I desperately wanted to do that in the real world.

[00:04:22] Cherie: Um, and to be honest, I applied for like 30 jobs and just got nowhere. Yeah, it was quite. Quite demoralising. I think 17 years in the, in one company and you, you felt pretty comfortable in what you did. And anyhow, I think it came to that point where, um, I decided I have to stop waiting for someone else to take a chance on me and maybe take a chance on myself.

[00:04:45] Cherie: So I started the business, um, and as I said, that's about three years ago now. And yeah, we've been working with some great businesses, um, and brands doing their leadership development, doing leadership, coaching, personal development workshops for their companies. So yeah, it's a bit of a dream now. [00:05:00]

[00:05:00] Mel: Yeah, it's amazing.

[00:05:01] Mel: And just following you on LinkedIn, on Instagram and seeing, uh. How far you've come so quickly and let's not forget the women in leadership conference as well. Like that is

[00:05:11] Cherie: yeah, thank you. Yes. Thank you. And it was great to have you there. I, um, yeah, Ignite. It was the second year that we ran it. Um, it's such an inspiring day.

[00:05:20] Cherie: Like I think I'm still feeling goosebumps of having this year. We had 230 women in the room. And a couple of fine good men as well and, um, incredible speakers, just different walks of life, different perspectives, just all about inspiring, inspiring people to live their best, biggest life, really.

[00:05:39] Mel: Yes. And I can attest from somebody who was there, it was an exceptional day.

[00:05:43] Mel: So well run, of course, I would not expect anything less.

[00:05:45] Cherie: Thank you! Yeah. It was great. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:05:50] Mel: So one of the things you, uh, you do offer as a business is mental health first aid training, which is why I've asked you to come on today because it is mental [00:06:00] health month. And I just want to ask you from your own experience here, having worked with leaders, you know, in Flight Centre and in your, your current business, what kind of an impact can communication have on mental health in the workplace?

[00:06:13] Mel: You know, like in terms of the language that we use and the tone of voice and how we communicate.

[00:06:19] Cherie: Yeah, well, I, I think actually. It has such a huge impact and I have been thinking a lot about this, you know, I had a conversation, we had a conversation, my husband and I with someone, um, I'm going to say of an older generation to where we are and, um, in the early days of offering mental health first aid, and they said, Oh, how's that going for you?

[00:06:41] Cherie: And we said, Oh, yeah, it's going well. And then it started tapering off the demand for it at that time. And their response was, yeah, well, that's not a surprise. Because talking about mental health in the workplace is a career limiting move. And I was absolutely shocked. And, you know, my husband responded immediately and said, and that's the reason we're doing [00:07:00] this because the fear and the misconception of... how important or is this a workplace topic or not?

[00:07:08] Cherie: I think that's part of the challenge that we need to solve. That's part of the stigma we need to remove because the human being, when mental health is impacted, is a human being, whether it's them at home or in the workplace. So the way that we approach it, I think with empathy, with curiosity and compassion rather than fear and judgment.

[00:07:27] Cherie: And, um, I guess I, I really do think it comes down to fear. People don't know enough. So they don't want to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. So then they say nothing, which can be just equally as damaging.

[00:07:39] Mel: That's a really good point. It's sort of sticking the head in the sand because it's uncomfortable for me as the communicator, as opposed to thinking about what my audience needs.

[00:07:50] Cherie: Yes, one hundred percent, it is because then these, the people who might be experiencing, um, you know, mental illness or not [00:08:00] feeling mentally well, they absolutely are sitting here thinking, I don't feel safe to open up. I don't feel comfortable to open up because this person is not giving me that space. Um, I, I feel like the language that we use and the words that we choose and, um, I've seen a few posts going around this month with mental health awareness around, um, even around suicide.

[00:08:20] Cherie: Like we don't say things like, died. Sorry. We say died by suicide. We don't say committed suicide. We don't say failed suicide because even those words, the connotations of those words, they're so negative and that just adds more shame. Um, you know, if you think about someone who's committed to jail, they've done something bad. But when we talk about committed suicide, it shouldn't be connected with such a negative connotation.

[00:08:45] Mel: Hmm. And it is such a powerful thing, language, right? I think a lot of people, certainly in my experience from a comms world, don't realise the impact of the choices they make with language and whether that is mental [00:09:00] health or neurodiversity or even just, uh, people's life experiences. Uh, that can have a massive impact on how people feel, as you say, feel safe in a workplace.

[00:09:10] Cherie: Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And we've got to take that responsibility to be aware of the words. And people, you know, often you'll hear, we used to hear it all the time, uh, in the work you do as well, where people go, Oh, you know, that wasn't what I intended. Well, the reality, you know, we do need to check in on our intentions, but the reality is what, how is that received by the person?

[00:09:33] Cherie: Um, and even just when we talk about language, I think being, um, Yeah, without sounding too serious, like this is no joke, you know, mental health is not a joke. So using words like, Oh, I feel so depressed today. If what you mean is you're in a low mood, um, Oh gosh, this anxiety is really getting to me. If what you mean is I'm under a bit of pressure. Um, so I think it's, it's making sure we're not using these words that are diagnosed mental health [00:10:00] conditions when it's just actually challenging, um, emotional states.

[00:10:05] Mel: Yeah. Yeah. And look, I can relate to that. I know this isn't all about me, but I'm about to make it all about me, but being somebody who is diagnosed with ADHD, I find it really frustrating people go, Oh, I'm so ADHD.

[00:10:18] Mel: I am so ADHD, or this is an ADHD moment, but they're not diagnosed. They haven't been through that process. And, uh, for me, that is. It's almost making light of some of the behaviors when, you know, that's a behavior I really struggle to control without help. And so for me, I can really relate to that language use.

[00:10:40] Cherie: Yes. And, and it's like a complete, uh, uh, empathy miss if you like, or it's, it's just really poor emotional intelligence because we're an unintended, I know it's, it's mainly unintended. But yes, we use these expressions, um, just so free. I mean, there's expressions now that I'm not even going to say [00:11:00] on the podcast that we used to use growing up in, um... what I used to use growing up in the schoolyard that now we would never, because it's, it's really for sexuality, um, it's so discriminatory, like it's terrible and we know not to use them now and we wouldn't.

[00:11:14] Cherie: Um, so I think it's the same when it comes to mental health and wellness, um, mental illness and neurodiversity as well. It's a perfect example.

[00:11:22] Mel: Yeah, so we've touched on some challenges, are there other challenges that leaders and team members face when communicating about mental health in a respectful way?

[00:11:34] Cherie: Yeah, look, I feel like sometimes it's probably not knowing how... big the domain is in a way. So, um, I think that there might be some fear or people hold back from talking about it because they're worried. I think we've touched on that about worried about the impact that their words might have. But there's something I found really useful and I love to share it when we're talking about these in workshops it's about the mental health continuum.

[00:11:58] Cherie: Are you familiar with that? [00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Cherie: A little but please for our leader. Yeah Yeah.

[00:12:02] Cherie: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. So, I mean, this is, this is my interpretation of it, but if you think about a, a, a scale from one end of a continuum to another and almost color coding it. So you've got a green end, which is mentally well, you've got then, you know, traffic light kind of colors.

[00:12:19] Cherie: The next one is going to be yellow, which is, you know, I'm under pressure. I'm not feeling great. I'm not at my best, but I'm, I'm, I'm okay. But I'm, I'm on the edge a little, if that makes sense, if I'm using the right language here. Then we go to orange, which is, I am. I'm not in a good place. I'm a bit of a downward spiral and I'm probably needing some extra support, maybe some different tools and strategies to get out of this headspace or this mental, um, well, way of being, I guess you could say.

[00:12:48] Cherie: And then the red would be a diagnosed mental illness. Now we can go up and down that continuum. It's not a set thing. It's a completely, you know, depending on the support you have in the scenario and the [00:13:00] environment, we can go up and down. But what I enjoy about that, I think, is important to recognize is for leaders is to think about sometimes it's People in our teams are in the green and they're in the yellow.

[00:13:10] Cherie: So if we're under time pressures, we're under stress at work, we're under deadlines, um, changes, external changes, environmental impacts of the economy, et cetera. So if we've got a lot of people going from that green into yellow. Then we can take some smaller strategies and I think, um, often people might see these as, um, fluffy strategies in their workplace, but I don't agree.

[00:13:35] Cherie: I think it's, you know, a little bit of an early mark. It's, um, taking walking meetings with your teams. It's, it's looking at the strategies we know, such as mindfulness and, um, And acts of kindness and, uh, gratitude and all of these, like being out in nature, connecting with people. So it's, it's looking at some of those strategies that, uh, they're everywhere.

[00:13:56] Cherie: If anyone wants, you know, how do we, um, improve mental health by [00:14:00] 1%? You know, these are things we could do in our everyday workplace. And they're not necessarily the solution. If people are in the red place, um, I think the red space and the continuum, that's where we want to get, um, Professional support.

[00:14:14] Cherie: That's where we absolutely as leaders are encouraging people in that orange and then red space. Okay, who else are you speaking to? Um, when I did the mental health first aid, I've done it twice now. And as you said, it's something that we now offer with our clients and, um, to come into workplaces or we run public courses for it.

[00:14:33] Cherie: And one of the analogies they gave, which has really stuck with me, is that if you saw someone, you know, walking down the street and they fell over and they, um, They were bleeding and, and they needed, they needed support. You would ring the ambulance. You would ring triple zero. They would tell you while you're on the phone, I need an ambulance.

[00:14:51] Cherie: Okay, what's happening? How do we keep this person safe until the other paramedics arrive, right? Like it was kind of normal, but suddenly when it comes to mental health, [00:15:00] I think that people get frightened that they need to have the solutions. I don't know how to deal with these situations. Well, no one's asking us to.

[00:15:07] Cherie: What we need to do is get that person to the support they need. To a psychologist, to a counselor, to a GP, to a support line. There are so many resources for people to go and get the support, but it's not the leader's job to be the psychologist or have that conversation. It's the leader's job to connect them with the support they need.

[00:15:26] Mel: That's a really good tip. And it's something I learned very early on as a leader. Yeah. One of my first. Roles as a leader. Uh, and I think too, a lot of leaders are just thrown into, Hey, you're a team leader now. Go, go lead.

[00:15:41] Cherie: Yeah. No kidding. No kidding. Yeah.

[00:15:43] Mel: Like, Oh, okay. We're doing this now. What do I do? Yeah.

[00:15:46] Mel: Yeah. Which is actually part of the reason I'm developing a whole other course on first time leader communication skills, because. Been there, done that, um, but I was trying to solve people's problems instead of just recognizing that [00:16:00] actually sometimes people just wanna have a rant.

[00:16:02] Cherie: Absolutely. And so I think if we go into those really practical situations and conversations, as you said, I think it's, you know, for the first time getting curious without judgment, what, what support can I give you today?

[00:16:13] Cherie: What do you need to, um, be in a better headspace or to be feeling, um, To be at your best today or something quite broad, if they haven't expressed anything deeper yet. And then if a pattern occurs, because maybe it is, you know what, I actually just need to come in later tomorrow. Like I just need one hour to myself where I just will reset or I need, I haven't been to the gym all week.

[00:16:36] Cherie: I haven't managed to get there. Could I just leave a little bit early today to get to that gym class? Yeah, absolutely. Then we can, we can ask. Just ask, how's your mental health? And see what people say and not to be afraid. Um, there's actually, uh, not to be afraid of the response, just be open and curious and compassionate. There is a, um, an acronym in this little book. This is [00:17:00] from the Mental Health First Aid, and they call it algee - A L G E E.

[00:17:06] Cherie: It's like the action plan, if you like. The first is approach the person, assess and assist with any crisis. So that's if there is a crisis. Now, in a workplace, occasionally there might be a crisis, but often it's not. So then the next is the L listen and communicate non judgmentally. And I think when we talk about non judgmental, It's recognising that everyone has that different history.

[00:17:30] Cherie: And just, I guess, then goes to the G in this ALGEE. So we've got to approach the person, L for listen and communicate non judgmentally. G is give support and information. So that would be, okay, do you want to catch up with me? Do you want to call a hotline? Do you want to go to your EAP, uh, as an example?

[00:17:48] Cherie: And then the E, um, encourage the person to get appropriate professional help. So in fairness, that would be when the EAP or go and see a GP and get your mental health plan. And then the E is [00:18:00] encouraged other supports. So who else can you speak to in your life? Where are you going to get that? And I think that's anything from stress all the way to diagnosed mental illness.

[00:18:11] Mel: Yeah, I think that's a great, uh, acronym to, to, in terms of just something that's easy to remember, which, you know, from a comms perspective, you want things that are easy to pick up and use... in the moment when you need them, you don't have to go searching for the, the handbook or those sorts of things.

[00:18:25] Cherie: Yeah.

[00:18:25] Mel: And I just want to the spectrum. It reminds me a little bit, and I don't mean this in a patronizing way, but I have a lot of friends of family whose kids have gone through Prep in recent years, and they teach them about those zones. You know, are you in the yellow zone? Are you in the red?

[00:18:41] Cherie: That's my daughter right now. Yes.

[00:18:44] Mel: Yeah. My twin nieces are in Prep doing the same thing and they, I love that they are teaching this kind of self awareness and emotional intelligence from that age. I feel like I've had to learn that as an adult, whereas.

[00:18:58] Cherie: Yep.

[00:18:59] Mel: We are now seeing [00:19:00] this come through in Prep where they go, what zone are you in?

[00:19:03] Cherie: And do you know, it's so funny you use that example because I, I ask, I speak to that a lot in the workshops, whether it's, um, I personally don't facilitate the mental health first aid, um, our qualified instructor Wade does, uh, but also we run resilience workshops and the emotional intelligence workshops, so it's all very interconnected.

[00:19:22] Cherie: And in those, like, I'll often ask that, you know, hands up, who here learnt about emotional regulation and talked about feelings, all feelings, in school? And of course, like, no one puts their hand up. And I just think this is incredible that children are now learning to express their emotions, to be able to be aware of their emotions and then how to regulate.

[00:19:42] Cherie: Now it's really simple for a child, but how often do we do that in our teams?

[00:19:47] Cherie: And when we talk about being empathetic and nonjudgmental, um, I think it's Brene Brown. She says, you know, empathy is not about connecting to the experience, but connecting to the emotion that underpins the experience. [00:20:00] But if you don't know how to say those emotions or express those emotions, then how do you connect with people genuinely?

[00:20:07] Cherie: And, um, another one is Susan David's, book called Emotional Agility. Um, and she often speaks about the importance of not labeling negative emotions or hard, she calls them hard emotions, but not negative emotions. Because then when we say, Oh, I don't want to feel anything negative, then things like sadness and anger and disgust. And these emotions are almost, um, not spoken about.

[00:20:30] Cherie: And we almost push them under the rug rather than actually openly discussing with someone how they're feeling, which then, you know, can permeate into not feeling mentally well because you're holding on to all these heavy emotions without an outlet to express them.

[00:20:45] Mel: Yeah. You've been told those hard emotions are a bad thing. And so to fit into social norms, then don't express ourselves, which just perpetuates what we've just been talking about, which is not a safe space too. [00:21:00] Yeah, 100%.

[00:21:00] Cherie: In the workplace too. And I, I remember in, um, the GFC, I was an area leader at Flight Centre. And we had a little area name was called Brigadoon. It's a random name, but that's what we were called.

[00:21:13] Mel: I've seen the TV show.

[00:21:15] Cherie: Yeah, it's really, anyway, I inherited that one. Um, and I had this slogan and I thought what I was doing was being above the line and positive.

[00:21:23] Cherie: And I had this slogan and it was, there's no doom and gloom in Brigadoon. And it was just focusing on what can we control right now? Not looking at the GFC and what's external, you know, let's focus on what we can control. And for the most part, I think it was the right approach. But what did happen, what I learned later is that people were too fearful to come and tell me what their fears and concerns were, because I was like, we're going to be positive.

[00:21:45] Cherie: We're going to be positive. And now I know that's called toxic positivity. And again, I think I wasn't allowing people to express what was really going on for them. So I think then that that was a lesson I took with me into COVID. It's... [00:22:00] "yes, and" you know, this is hard and we'll be okay and again with mental, um, with mental health, if people are in a bad spot, it's saying, you know, I'm sorry that you're having this experience.

[00:22:11] Cherie: Thank you for sharing that with me and we'll get you the support. So you're not diminishing it. You're not putting it down. You don't make it better than it is. You don't make it worse than it is.

[00:22:20] Mel: Yeah, that's a great tip. So, uh, just quickly, before we move to our final few questions, can you tell us a little bit about the Mental Health First Aid training that your team offers? Like, what is it? Why do you think it's so important to have this training and have people trained in this in a workplace?

[00:22:39] Cherie: Yeah, great. So it is part of the Mental Health First Aid Australia. Um, there's two options. So it's a two day face to face program, or there's a blended where you can do online learning and then face to face kind of debrief.

[00:22:51] Cherie: I think for a lot of people, they've walked away understanding the, again, the language, like the nuances of the language and the way that we communicate. There's a lot [00:23:00] to it. So there's a lot of, um, what we used to say and how to, how to identify what are the, what are the actual, um, not so much how to diagnose, like that's not our place, but in, in a workplace to go, how have I, how am I noticing this?

[00:23:14] Cherie: Is this anxiety? Um, is this, uh, substance use, is this depression? Are they linked to those things? Is someone having a panic attack and how do I support them? So, um, you're looking at all those topics, if you like, over the two days. How do you identify it?

[00:23:29] Cherie: How do you support them? What to do in a crisis? What language to use? Um, it is not a lighthearted two days. It is really, it is really quite intense. And, and I say that because I think it's important people know what they're walking into, um, from that you actually get a first aid certificate. And then the feedback is like, I wish I'd done this sooner. I wish I knew this, um, the, the quality of the conversations now they're now able to have with confidence with their team is, has really been propelled as well.

[00:23:57] Mel: I think that's, you've hit the nail on the head there in terms of [00:24:00] confidence, like being able to, you know, any training you go to should leave you feeling confident in the skillset. And this is a really, as we said earlier, one of those... places where people are uncomfortable, particularly we're all uncomfortable if we don't have the confidence that we know what to do. So yeah, fantastic. So Cherie, there's three questions I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those?

[00:24:23] Cherie: Yes. Yes. I think so.

[00:24:27] Mel: We'll soon find out. Okay. What's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:24:37] Cherie: Uh, I would say one of the best is, I'm not always great at it, I'm still a work in progress, is silence.

[00:24:44] Mel: Ah.

[00:24:46] Cherie: And specifically, I mean, in conversation, just to let people think and give them the time to reflect. And be silent, not try and jump in to save them or to keep the conversation going. [00:25:00] Um, that's been really powerful and I think allowed some incredible conversations to take place through my career so far.

[00:25:07] Mel: That's a great tip. It's actually something I learned very early on in journalism, where basically if you just stop talking, people say a lot of things they wouldn't say otherwise.

[00:25:16] Cherie: Right? Exactly.

[00:25:19] Mel: So that's a, it's a really good tip. The second question is, what's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of in communicating?

[00:25:31] Cherie: I would say it's to seek to understand, to genuinely find out what is that like for you. And if we have more curiosity, thanks Ted Lasso for bringing that on the map as well. Um, you know, the more curiosity and seeking to understand, I... Passionately believe the world will be a better place because it's not trying to force someone to see my idea But that that curiosity to seek. Okay. Well, where are you coming from? What can I learn from you? [00:26:00]

[00:26:00] Mel: Hmm, I think that's excellent advice. And the final question, who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:26:07] Cherie: Uh, other than Ted Lasso, no,

[00:26:11] Mel: I love Ted Lasso,

[00:26:15] Cherie: but he's not really real, but he is in my mind. Um, I would say from a professional perspective or someone I haven't met would actually be Brene Brown, a massive fan. Um, and someone I have met and, um, constantly call on through my life is my dear friend and mentor, Rachel O'Brien.

[00:26:33] Mel: Fantastic. And what have you learned from Rachel?

[00:26:36] Cherie: I think with Rachel is around following your intuition. And actually, um, I think from a female perspective, you know, embracing your feminine energy of compassion and empathy and kindness and that it's a strength, uh, for many years in my, uh, younger days in leadership, I kind of felt like I had to be a certain style of leader and a certain style of communicator, [00:27:00] which was really challenging because it just wasn't who I was and now through her.

[00:27:04] Cherie: And I think that's also one of those lessons for me is, um, Just to be authentically you doesn't mean that you don't work on your blind spots or your weaknesses, but just own your style. Uh, and that she, for me, it's, um, been someone who really encourages those traits and, um, also embodies them. So I think being able to see someone else embodying the kind of style and leadership I respect is, yeah, it's been a game changer.

[00:27:29] Mel: Yeah. Authenticity has a way of really uplifting us once we... Uh, are true to that, I, I find, absolutely.

[00:27:37] Cherie: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%.

[00:27:40] Mel: So Cherie, how can people find out more about you and get in touch to learn more about not just mental health first aid training, but the other programs you offer?

[00:27:49] Cherie: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. Um, so we're at luminateleadership. com. au also, um, pretty active on LinkedIn and Instagram. A little bit on [00:28:00] Facebook there as well. So, um, our website, um, you can reach out to me. I've, I think you're going to pop some, um, links in there for my own personal Instagram and LinkedIn as well. And I've just, I love human connection.

[00:28:11] Cherie: So even if it's just of interest, uh, you can come and join. I think we've got a, not, I think we have a, um, a newsletter with Luminate as well. You can join via our, our, um, web address and just follow along with different tips and tricks and hopefully some inspiration as well.

[00:28:26] Mel: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Cherie, for being on the show today. I've learned a lot from you and, uh, can't wait to see what's next for you and Luminate.

[00:28:36] Cherie: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I hope it's been of use for people. Thanks so much.