[00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm your host, Mel Loy, and in this show, I will give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights. You can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business, and never looked back.

[00:00:27] These days, I use my 20 plus years of experience to help guide organisations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, cat mum to Cookie, aunty to 12 nieces and nephews, a yoga teacher, and a group fitness fanatic. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and helpful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:00:52] Hello, friend, and welcome to another episode of Less Chatter, More Matter.

[00:00:59] And I [00:01:00] am so excited to bring you today's episode because it is an interview with one of my favorite solopreneurs, Leanne Hughes. Now, Leanne is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator who helps you maximise your team's potential by creating influential, contagious work experiences. She's the host of the First Time Facilitator podcast, which is how I came to know Leanne a couple of years ago, and I absolutely loved that podcast. I still do, but I absolutely lapped up everything that she had to say and all the things that her guests shared on that podcast when I was first starting out on my own.

[00:01:35] Now, more recently, she's become an author. She is the author of the Two Hour Workshop Blueprint which helps you design your workshops fast, deliver strong without the stress. And I've read the book. It is exceptional. Clients work with Leanne for her energy and unique approaches. And when she's not advising, you can find her working out to the Peloton app. I believe she's also training for a marathon. That's one of her goals for 2024.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Now in 2022, she was inducted into the million dollar consulting hall of fame, recognized by peers as being among the world leaders in consulting, which is an incredible achievement. So sit back, relax, enjoy this chat with Leanne, where we go through her SPARK framework for writing or developing two hour workshops. Some of her top tips for creating non- boring workshop experiences, and we also dabble a little into the world of AI and how to use it to prepare for your workshops.

[00:02:31] Okay, without further ado, here's Leanne.

[00:02:34] Mel: Hi Leanne. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:36] Leanne: Mel, always great to chat. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:39] Mel: I'm very excited to have you on because I am a long term fan of yours, as you know. Uh, so for those of you who don't... know you. Could you tell us a bit about yourself, what you do and how you came to do what you do?

[00:02:51] Leanne: Yeah, sure. I do many different things, but I think I'm most known for the workshop design and facilitation stuff. And it really just came off the back of scratching my own itch, much like you [00:03:00] Mel, I just love learning. And so, um, I was actually working in marketing roles and I worked, um, you know, it was in this professional development and I just.

[00:03:08] Leanne: I just love going to workshop and conferences, addicted to that. I'm always that participant in a room that will put their hand up and volunteer and be the scribe and just get involved. Probably like the perfect participant, the one that we want in our workshops. And then I moved back to Brisbane. I was living in regional Western Australia, moved back to Brisbane in 2016, working for a global mining company.

[00:03:27] Leanne: Resources, the commodity price was pretty low. We didn't have much of a budget, so. Uh, we were looking internally for people to run workshops and I, that's where I got my start. And I had no idea what the heck I was doing. My boss was amazing. He flew me to Canada to run a workshop. I'd never done it before and it didn't, it didn't go that great.

[00:03:44] Leanne: So I got back to Australia and I started bringing up all my like facilitation friends and said, what, what would you have done in this situation? And then, um, I thought, Oh, this is, this is useful. Right. So then I recorded it, create the podcast and then, uh, fast forward to this year. Over 240 [00:04:00] podcasts around workshops and a book that's been released.

[00:04:02] Leanne: So, um, Yeah.

[00:04:05] Mel: That's yeah. It's amazing. Watching your, even your, just your growth in the three years that I've known you has been phenomenal. And the way you keep kind of not so much reinventing yourself, but taking different perspectives on what you do is really cool too. So the podcast for those who don't know is First Time Facilitator; absolutely check it out. Uh, it's full of gold, but yeah, you mentioned you have written a book. It's called the two hour workshop blueprint. Can you tell us a bit... about why you decided to write the book and why you focused on that two hour format, too?

[00:04:35] Leanne: Yeah, it's hyper niche, isn't it? Like it's a two hour workshop.

[00:04:40] Leanne: I think, um, I, a couple of reasons. One is I wanted a book to be a prescription for something. So someone's got a problem. And I think the most common problem I was solving and I like to solve is when... uh, not a workshop facilitator, but just an everyday SME within a business, an expert - like they might have some type of, uh, specialist knowledge - they're tapped on the [00:05:00] shoulder and they have to run a workshop.

[00:05:01] Leanne: And I think that's because that's where I came from. Um, and so the other thing is like, I was a bit of self awareness in that. So I don't really like running three day events. I kind of get tired. I'm more of a sort of sprinter. And so I was like, well, I like the idea of two hours, two hours is good enough because... if you can run a two hour workshop, you've got to do things like get people sort of warmed up and engaged.

[00:05:22] Leanne: There's a bit of content and activity, and there's time to get into a deep dive and wrap it up. Uh, and I think if you can do a two hour workshop well, you can do a one day workshop well. The philosophies still apply, but I think it was also kind of clickbaity and people, you know, people like numbers, they like specificity.

[00:05:38] Leanne: So from a marketing angle too, that's why I kind of went that hyper.

[00:05:43] Mel: That makes a lot of sense. And as you say, a lot of the time, I know from my own perspective, similar situation being in a corporate comms role and realizing, Hey, we need to build some capability in the business, but there's no budget. So guess we'll run the workshops.

[00:05:55] Mel: Uh, and that happens a lot with comms pros, but project managers, [00:06:00] change managers, accounts, like. I'm sure you've seen it all too.

[00:06:05] Leanne: Yeah. I think you can look at it, uh, one of two ways. So one is, Oh crap. Like, you know, I wish we could get someone brilliant in. But I think both you and I have seen it the other way. Like what a great development opportunity. The fact that there were no resources and there were massive constraints, like that was wonderful for us, for our growth.

[00:06:21] Mel: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. And I wouldn't be doing what I do today if it weren't for, you know, having someone like my leader at the time saying, yeah, sure, go ahead, give it a shot.

[00:06:30] Mel: Um, now in your book, you do talk about the spark framework for developing a workshop. Can you talk us through that?

[00:06:37] Leanne: Yeah. What's fascinating about this is that I've written a book about my process and I've done like the CliftonStrengths tool and my number one strength is ideation and they're always like... don't share your process with people because it's messy. So the reason I had to create a process is because my process was messy and I was, every month I was being asked to deliver sort of topics with a bit of a spin. So I had to kind of redesign workshops all the time. [00:07:00] And it was taking me way too much time to do that because I kept reinventing the wheel.

[00:07:04] Leanne: So again, I know the value of constraints and discipline and structure. I know that inherently. So I had to create a structure for myself. So what SPARK is, it's an end to end process, a linear process. for designing a workshop. So SPARK is an acronym. I like, um, the verb SPARK in terms of what we do is our role as workshop hosts is to SPARK conversation, collaboration, connection, that type of thing.

[00:07:25] Leanne: Uh, but really quickly SPARK is for setup and this is like a behind the scenes activity. So really profiling who's in your group, the context that you're delivering this workshop in. Uh, power up is the P and there's two aspects to that. So one is, uh, getting yourself ready and excited to deliver it because that's a really important indicator of how your group will show up as well is how excited you are about... about running that running it and then power up as in getting your groups engaged right from the beginning.

[00:07:52] Leanne: So you're setting that tone of engagement. A is for activities, which makes up about 90 minutes if you're looking at a two hour workshop. That's the [00:08:00] bulk. So I didn't call it content. I called it activities because it's about interaction. Uh, R is for a review, that typical sort of, uh, giving it time because like, I don't know about you Mel, but sometimes like I'm, I'm so into it that I'm like, Oh crap, we're ending in five minutes.

[00:08:14] Leanne: I better do a review and reflection out. But it's not really, that's, there's gold in that in terms of helping people embed and take action. So giving it a bit more time. And then the final step is K, which is keep, and that's about continuous improvement. So after the workshop, how are you getting sort of templated resources?

[00:08:32] Leanne: How are you reflecting on how the experience went? What activities worked well? So that the next time you design, you're not starting from scratch again. So that's the end to end process.

[00:08:41] Mel: Yeah. And I love the acronym because it's easy to remember as well. Spark. And I think you're right though. Continuous improvement piece is something, uh, I personally have had to get more disciplined about, you know, what worked, what didn't actually documenting that in some way as well.

[00:08:56] Mel: Uh, and, uh, yeah, taking that time to [00:09:00] actually go, okay, well, what will I do differently next time? And sometimes it's just in my head, but if it's in my head, it's, there's a good chance it's going to get forgotten. So, um, do you have any tips for how you can sort of take some of these learnings and maybe document them or put them, you know, build it forward basically.

[00:09:16] Leanne: Yeah, yeah. I think there's a couple of elements to it. I think one is the also. Um, we're on a podcast now and so there's podcast show notes for this episode based on things we'll be talking about. So I like to create workshop show notes and typically I know myself, so I know there's like certain books or articles or podcasts that I might refer to people or bring up in a conversation and that like that's typical for me instead of terms of my standout.

[00:09:38] Leanne: So creating like. I've got a Spotify playlist, which is based on my favorite coaching podcast episodes. Not, not mine, but just ones that I've heard. So like curating playlists and those are versatile for any sort of group that you're working with. Um, so that's how I sort of, um, for in terms of resources, I like to set that up.

[00:09:54] Leanne: And typically in advance, so that because speed is really important, like within 24 hours of your [00:10:00] session, just getting the speed, the content out very quickly to the group. In terms of my own reflection, I mean, I'm, I'm similar to you, like I'll tend to either if it went really well or really badly, those are the reflection points.

[00:10:12] Leanne: Um, but I use, I did a whole podcast episode about how I store files. I use, I just use the cloud. And I'll use, uh, phrases within that, so like, you know, if it's communication, something specific related to that, maybe feedback. Um, it's just even searching for those terms, seeing what's there, and I, because I use my own spark sheets and run sheets, I can very quickly see, um, what I've got.

[00:10:33] Leanne: At the same time, I also work analog. I've printed out numerous run sheets and so sometimes it's nice just stepping away, going to a cafe and flicking through and seeing, um, what activities have been stored. But definitely I think I'm looking at, uh, next year, like looking at a notion, setting up a notion board, which has like activities, timing, you know, all of that within the notion board, which I think would be really helpful.

[00:10:55] Mel: Yeah. I love that idea. And, uh, I've only just recently, I know I'm very late to the [00:11:00] party, but started using Notion for just sort of brain dumping stuff. And I love it. I just, ideas, chuck it in. Like, that's all it is.

[00:11:07] Leanne: It's great. It's so good. And I love it. It's like, like dynamic. You can like embed YouTube and podcast episodes.

[00:11:13] Leanne: It's not just like a Google doc with links. It's like, yeah, kind of easy to build website, a wiki even. Right.

[00:11:19] Mel: Yeah. Oh, I like that. Yeah. A wiki. I really liked that. Cause what I've been doing for some of the bigger workshops is creating. Like a separate page on my website with a password and it's got all the things I talk about and templates and stuff, but you know, that's a lot of time and effort to do that.

[00:11:34] Mel: Whereas, you know, as you say, notion, it's much easier. Just chuck it in. So I love that. I mean, speaking of digital, we live in this hybrid world now, and that's just the new normal for pretty much, I'd say 95 percent of workplaces now. What are some of the differences you're finding between delivering for online audiences and delivering for, uh, like an internal in person audience and how can we make hybrid delivery easier?

[00:11:59] Mel: Training [00:12:00] work, because I've seen some really terrible examples of it.

[00:12:03] Leanne: I think, I mean, hybrid is the worst. It is the worst. Like I'd rather all virtual, all in person as well, all in person. Number one, obviously second would be virtual. And then as very like down the bottom would be hybrid. I think, I think it's really about the setup of it and the expectation setting as well.

[00:12:20] Leanne: The problem can be sometimes if you work in externally coming in, sometimes Mel, I've... I've jumped into, you know, an in person event at the Emporium. And as I get there, they're like, Oh, we've got so and so dialing in from Victoria. They just did not give me, um, that briefing beforehand. And so as part of my client briefing, I will ask the question, "Hey, will anyone be dialing in?"

[00:12:39] Leanne: Because that, that really impacts your design. A few things that I've seen work is actually, uh, Have you ever been scuba diving, Mel?

[00:12:48] Mel: No, but I'm excited about this.

[00:12:50] Leanne: It's not exciting. It's not exciting. But when you learn how to scuba dive, they pair you up with like a buddy, right? So your buddy, you and [00:13:00] your buddy are always going everywhere together, you're checking in on each other.

[00:13:02] Leanne: Um, and I think with hybrid, it's important to have a buddy. So a buddy that's in the room and then you're, you're like responsible for the person virtually as well. So if you can see, if you can see that they're signaling that they want to jump in... or you're like a representative of, um, you know, them, hey, just turning to them.

[00:13:20] Leanne: It's hard for a facilitator to keep an eye on, on all of that, particularly when there are multiple people joining in virtually. So I like to assign that role to the people in the room, um, as well. Cause then it kind of clears your bandwidth too. But I don't know, like every time I can, like, I really try to influence a client and say, look, either it's, we make a decision on all virtual or all in person because...

[00:13:40] Leanne: there is a real power imbalance for that poor person that's jumping in virtually. Plus the people in the room also suffer because they have to pause and it's, it, it just takes, it's just kind of, uh,

[00:13:51] Mel: disjointed almost.

[00:13:52] Leanne: Not stagnant, but just disjointed is the word. Yeah, that's right.

[00:13:55] Mel: Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

[00:13:56] Mel: There's, there's an equity to it. I think that, [00:14:00] uh, and I was talking about this recently with somebody. Even just meetings, virtual meetings where you've got a bunch of people who are in the room because they're in the office and then you've got three or four people joining in from home. Those people from home never get the attention, never engage in the conversation the same way people in the room do.

[00:14:15] Mel: It's not an equitable communication tool in that sense. So I totally agree, like all in person or all virtual, but also I do find the whole technology side of things with hybrid never works like the way you want it to work. There's always something right.

[00:14:32] Leanne: Yeah. I mean, audio is the number one thing. And like you said, the people in person, like you want them to have a bit of cross talk and banter, but they also can't really do that with, and the microphones pick up, if they're picking up a voice, they're also picking up paper shuffling.

[00:14:45] Leanne: It's just not. Not fit for purpose.

[00:14:47] Mel: It's messy. Agreed. So what are your three to five top tips on creating and delivering great, non boring workshop experiences?

[00:14:57] Leanne: There's so many; I wrote a whole book about it, so to [00:15:00] pick three. I think it's. Uh, would be focus on, so I guess my mistake when I first started was focusing too much on the content versus the actual people and the context that they're in.

[00:15:10] Leanne: And I think the value is, it's not about the content anymore. I think we really kind of default to that, but hello, we've got AI, we've got Google. It's not about the content. It's really around. What is the context? What do these people need? What result are you trying to drive? Um, Mel, you know, my favorite word, my number one criteria for all workshops is contrast.

[00:15:28] Leanne: Like that's the number one question is like, how do you keep people engaged? And it's all about, well, how are you mixing it up? Like, um, often too often, it's just I mean, again, Leanne, first time facilitator, it was just Leanne, slides, next slide, next slide, next, next slide. Um, how are you weaving in stories, activities, getting people to stand up, move around. That's how you maintain attention.

[00:15:51] Leanne: Uh, yeah. And so, and I think the third, the third topic for me is top of mind today really is around how do you [00:16:00] generate your own excitement for your workshop? And how do you set the tone of, um, the people are going to find it interesting from the moment that you get started.

[00:16:08] Leanne: So something I share is to engage early and engage often. And I think a typical mistake is that, um, sometimes we kick off in a very traditional way. We'll, we'll step up at the front of the room, we'll do introduction and housekeeping. And so something I share in my podcast is how do you create an unpredictable moment that predictably works. So spitting that on its heel, kicking off with a story, starting with an activity and then moving into... into housekeeping and things like that. Just again, create that contrast, but also maybe a bit of intrigue as well. And it provides a bit of a pattern interrupter to gain attention.

[00:16:40] Mel: I want to just touch on something you briefly mentioned just before, and that is AI. And are you seeing anything interesting in terms of AI use and facilitation?

[00:16:52] Leanne: Ah, well, I can show you how I'm using it.

[00:16:54] Mel: Yeah, yeah, please.

[00:16:55] Leanne: Yeah, yeah. And I don't know what other people are doing, but for me, I'm, I mean, I use [00:17:00] AI as a typical brainstorming buddy, so I love, um, I think workshop design is a very creative process and there's divergent thinking and then you've got to converge on things.

[00:17:08] Leanne: So AI is as divergent, but something I use it for, which is kind of fun, is actually what do I call my workshop? And I think that's a super critical part of getting people to even attend. And gain their interests. And so I'll say, like, imagine you're the world's best copywriter. I'm running an event for insurance brokers.

[00:17:25] Leanne: I want to play on the, on the industry and like use a pun in the title and a transformation relating to this, to that. Give me 20 ideas and it will do that. Uh, sometimes I ask for reflection questions. So look, I'm running this activity, give me five great reflection questions, give me an easy to answer question.

[00:17:44] Leanne: And so that's how I use it for basically like, so I kind of know what I'm doing, but sometimes I want more inspiration and just a brainstorming buddy. Yeah. What about you? Are you using it in your design?

[00:17:54] Mel: Yeah. Similar in terms of just coming up with some ideas. So things like, okay, what are some fun [00:18:00] icebreaker activities for a group about blah, blah, blah. Uh, I do little fun quizzes in the longer workshops, you know, that have nothing to do with... what we're actually talking about. So for example, when I've been running the quiz, uh, the courses in Malaysia, uh, I'll do a quiz after lunch on the first day that is, uh, facts about Malaysia and Australia.

[00:18:20] Mel: Yeah. And there's Tim Tams as prizes and that sort of stuff. So just coming up with, uh, yeah, ideas for questions, fun, multiple choice icebreakers that I'll put up on the screen, like what's your favorite emoji and that sort of stuff. And, uh, just doing some research as well. So when I am pulling content together, I'll go into Google Bard at the time and say, I'm looking for statistics on this particular topic.

[00:18:44] Mel: Now, what I tend to do though, is ask for it to search from sources I know are reliable. So like McKinsey, uh, Harvard Business Review, Gallup, like, you know, all those sorts of sources. So I'm actually getting... quality stuff that I can then go check is actually [00:19:00] real. It hasn't just been sourced from somewhere else.

[00:19:02] Leanne: It's not fake news.

[00:19:03] Mel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, fake news. Um, but yeah, I agree. I think the ideation part of it and the creativity Is really where I'm finding it really useful and sometimes just image creation. So if you're looking for a specific thing you want on a slide, you know, I've got a, I've got a picture of cats doing business around a laptop sort of thing.

[00:19:23] Mel: Like it's terrible. The image is terrible, but it's good fun. And it sparks a conversation about AI, um, which is what I love too.

[00:19:30] Leanne: I love that. Yeah, I used it recently for, um, a work event just like for breaks. And so we're at it, we're at a rugby pitch, like it was at a rugby clubhouse. And so I said, Oh, um, use the company colors, people having a great time.

[00:19:42] Mel: Um, yeah, you can use it for all those sorts of things that you would have had to go search all these images or create your own templates and that sort of thing. Now, just tell Canva what colors you want and bada boom, bada bing, you've got it. I love it.

[00:19:57] Mel: So this ... final sort of [00:20:00] question around this is, uh, oftentimes when we are in house roles and we can see there's a need for capability building. How do we get leaders on board with that? You know, from a perspective of a, the consultant, you know, you're, you're pitching your work, but also internally we've both been there as well. We're like, look, there's a real lack of communications capability or whatever it is. What are some ideas for getting people to support a, having the workshop in the first place, but b, then doing the work to make sure it sticks - like the learning actually sticks.

[00:20:30] Leanne: Yeah, I think, I mean, and my... thinking around this has definitely changed as a result of working with Alan Weiss, is it's not going with the workshop first. It's not about the workshop. It's not about the methodology. What leaders are concerned about is the results or the transformation that's going to occur.

[00:20:45] Leanne: So the workshop, it might be a piece of that, but it's not everything as well. And often when we're looking at change, there's environmental factors that impact it. It's policies. It might be a structure within the business that might be impacted as well. So I think talking more holistically and [00:21:00] then when you're pitching a workshop, it is in support of what is that overarching goal and like everything in communications.

[00:21:05] Leanne: I mean, we pay this to death, like what's in it for them. It really is about targeting it to that solution, to that fix and just talking in results rather than we'll do a two hour workshop and we'll solve all the world's problems; which I mean, workshops have that there's an unrealistic expectation there as well.

[00:21:21] Leanne: And I think that's why workshops occasionally, well, they get a bad rap because it's not relevant. It's not realistic. It's not actually meeting people where they're at, and they're making progress while they're there. Often I joke about, um, workshops, like they're workshops, they're not do it, do this later shops, like often you go in, you learn stuff and then you've got to do it later, but there's never time.

[00:21:43] Leanne: So like, how do you use the time you have together to do what you need to need to do and actually make some progress?

[00:21:49] Mel: I like that. Yeah. And I certainly, I try and do that with particular workshops where we're talking about, you know, creating a communications plan, for example, you know. Bring an example, something that you can start, we can [00:22:00] work through the template as we go.

[00:22:01] Mel: And then at least you've got something to take away. You've already started, like you've already started using the learning, it's work in progress, right? Like it's done. Yeah. That's awesome. So Leanne, I've got three questions I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for these?

[00:22:18] Leanne: I think I'm ready. Yeah.

[00:22:19] Mel: Yeah. She thinks she's ready.

[00:22:21] Mel: Okay. The first question is what's one of the best communications lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:22:31] Leanne: This is a really specific one, but, uh, and I'm surprised I'm actually calling this one out. But, um, I remember listening to podcast, uh, a podcast to talk about his language on a podcast.

[00:22:42] Leanne: And he said, he used to say things like, Hey, everyone, and talk to the group as a gen as... as a general audience versus, hey, you, or talking to one person. And I think I really shifted my language and it makes, it's definitely more personable. But when we're working, like we're not Taylor Swift [00:23:00] on a rock star stage saying: Hey everyone, welcome to Brisbane.

[00:23:02] Leanne: We are working with groups and we're talking to a collective, but also speaking to individuals. So I try to avoid using plurals when I speak on the podcast in videos. And I always just try to think I'm talking to one person, um, every time. And so that's really shifted. I mean, my mindset, even what I would say, uh, because it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's a big shift in the way that you think if you're just addressing one person.

[00:23:27] Leanne: So that's what I really try to hone into when I, um, uh, when I speak anywhere in any type of medium.

[00:23:33] Mel: I love that because it's, it speaks to the whole, I think one of the key lessons of communication is personalise; personalise your communication because it's never a one size fits all. And you're trying to reach people in a way that makes them feel special and feel heard at the same time as resonating a key message with them.

[00:23:52] Mel: So I love that. That's a great lesson. Okay, second question. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when [00:24:00] communicating?

[00:24:01] Leanne: I think, um, I'm going to share this because you're really good at it, Mel. I admire this about you. You speak with brevity. You make your point. And we're done. And I love that.

[00:24:09] Leanne: And so that's something I need to get better at. Um, my favorite quote from Jim Rohn, he says, um, we tend to make up in words what we lack in confidence. And I think brevity is really around how confident are you in that approach and being a bit thoughtful around it. So I guess, um, for me, we're all time poor.

[00:24:29] Leanne: I wish people would speak. More with brevity, I'm going to stop now. The irony in that!

[00:24:36] Mel: I know I'm being, I'm being, I'm being concise now. And I think, yeah, we've talked about this actually on the podcast before that balance you've got to get between... being concise, but also not being blunt. So still having the right tone, it can be a challenge as well, especially when you're writing emails.

[00:24:54] Mel: Like, yeah, it's one thing in person. It's quite another in the written form. Okay. Final [00:25:00] question. Who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:25:02] Leanne: Oh, um, I get inspiration everywhere. And even on, I just look for, I mean. My favorite, my favorite comedian I've got to say right now is Alan Weiss. I mentioned him before.

[00:25:16] Leanne: Something about his cutting New York humor, his ability to land a point, use metaphor, tell story, just shift - is incredible. Um, so yeah, he'd be the guy that I look to in terms of like my communicator role model for the moment, but definitely get inspiration from so many others.

[00:25:33] Mel: Yeah. And I do agree with Alan's, you know, I get his emails every week and there's always a story. There's always a story somehow, he's always got something, a story to share. And I think the other thing to come back to the workshop angle is, uh, when I attended his workshop that you organised to help to facilitate earlier this year, was it this year or last year?

[00:25:52] Leanne: Last year. Yeah.

[00:25:53] Mel: Good Lord. Okay. Um, his ability to run a two day workshop using just [00:26:00] flip charts. There was not a PowerPoint slide in sight. That was just next level for me. Like, how do you do that?

[00:26:08] Leanne: I know. And it was still like super engaging and you're like, what's he going to write up next? And it just seemed to flow. And then the Q and A was just sharp and on it. I mean, and this guy's over 75 now. It's just so remarkable.

[00:26:21] Mel: Yeah. He's certainly a role model for many. So Leanne, speaking of role models, where can people find your book?

[00:26:27] Leanne: Amazing. Yeah. So leannehughes. com, um, amazon. com, it's available everywhere. There's a special website dedicated to it at toourwork. shop. Um, but I mean, if you just Google it, I like it's you'll, you'll find it. Yeah.

[00:26:40] Mel: Yeah. Fantastic. And where can people find out more about you and learn from you?

[00:26:44] Leanne: Yeah. Uh, LinkedIn is a great platform. I'd love to connect with you. Um, I'm friends with Mel, so obviously we'll have mutual friends there and also, uh, Instagram and of course, yeah, the website again, leannehughes. com.

[00:26:55] Mel: Yeah. Fantastic. We'll put all of those links in the show notes. Leanne, thank you so much [00:27:00] for sharing just a tiny piece of your wisdom today. You're so full of wisdom, so I know we can only cover so much in 20 minutes or so, but I hope, I really think that people will get a lot out of this conversation and uh, we'll send them to your book because I have read it and it is awesome.

[00:27:16] Mel: And even as somebody who does run a lot of workshops, it's still gave me ideas, still gave me things to think about. And I was actually reading it when I was in Malaysia, holding a three day workshop, and, uh, it reminded me of a couple of things I'd, I used to do, but I've fallen out of the habit of doing so that night I actually went and changed a few things in my workshop for the next day.

[00:27:35] Mel: So even if you are a seasoned facilitator, read the book, it'll give you some ideas and reinforce some good habits, I think is, is probably the most important lesson from me.

[00:27:45] Mel: Thanks so much, Leanne.

[00:27:46] Leanne: Thank you, Mel. Always great to chat.

[00:27:49]