[00:00:00] Mel: Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm your host, Mel Loy, and in this show, I will give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights. You can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business, and never looked back.

[00:00:27] Mel: These days, I use my 20 plus years of experience to help guide organisations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, cat mum to Cookie, aunty to 12 nieces and nephews, a yoga teacher, and a group fitness fanatic. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and helpful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:00:52] Mel: Hello friend, and welcome to this week's episode of the podcast. I am super excited to have you tuning in because today's [00:01:00] episode is part one of a wonderful chat I had with Prina Shah. Now, if you don't know Prina, Get to know her. She's amazing. She is a coach, consultant, trainer, and speaker, and the host of the ways to change the workplace podcast.

[00:01:14] Mel: Prina's extensive background puts her in a unique position to respond to her clients needs. She spent 20 plus years in the corporate world, leading teams in strategic people and culture roles, focusing on culture change, leadership development, and change management. And she weaves in her background in sociology and social psychology to her work.

[00:01:36] Mel: Prina understands the challenges that today's workforce face and she brings a wealth of practical experience as well as fun and corporate knowledge to support you in developing the right kind of workplace with you. She works with global clients and is able to bring the best from the globe to her people and her clients.

[00:01:54] Mel: And Prina specialises in executive leadership and team development. She is an expert [00:02:00] in helping her clients to optimise individuals, teams, and organisational cultures. And I personally just find her a wonderful human.

[00:02:09] Mel: Early December, I met up with Prina in person over in Perth, where she is. And my niece was there for that meeting. And as we walked away, my niece was like, Oh my God, Aunty Mel, she is so smart. I'm like, yes, she is. So this is what you're getting on today's episode. One very smart woman who knows her stuff. This week is a part one of two. So in this part, I took the reins and interviewed Prina, and she shared some fantastic insights into the power of leadership communication, how poor communication can disrupt teams. And also, she shares a really great framework for leaders to think about when communicating with their teams.

[00:02:48] Mel: We also chat a bit about the book she's currently writing on leaving a legacy, which I cannot wait to read. On next week's episode, we flip the parts and Prina interviews me about all things change comms, [00:03:00] which was actually quite a nice change of pace for me. So sit back and relax and enjoy this chat with the very wonderful Prina Shah.

[00:03:09] Mel: Hi, Prina. I'm so excited to chat to you today.

[00:03:13] Prina: Me too. So great to be here, Mel.

[00:03:16] Mel: And for those of you who don't know, Prina is on the other side of the country to me. She's in Perth.

[00:03:21] Mel: I'm in Brisbane. So we're about a five hour flight, depending on which direction you're traveling in away from each other. But, uh, that's the power of a globalised world. We've come to know each other online over the last few years. So it's been awesome. Love this network of ours. Thanks. Thanks.

[00:03:37] Prina: Totally. Absolutely.

[00:03:38] Mel: So, so today's episode is going to be a bit of a two parter in a way because I'm going to interview Prina and then she's going to interview me. So, uh, and you'll be able to catch this on both my podcast and Prina's excellent podcast ways to change the workplace. So if you haven't yet, absolutely subscribe to that.

[00:03:57] Mel: Okay. So let's get into it. Prina, [00:04:00] I've given a bit of an intro to you in, uh, at the start of the episode, but what do you do and how did you get to doing what you do?

[00:04:09] Prina: Yeah, really good question Mel. So, I'm all about finding positive ways to change your workplace.

[00:04:16] Prina: That's what I do in a nutshell. I am a consultant. I'm a leadership coach. I'm a facilitator like yourself, and I'm a keynote speaker like yourself. self as well. I have a podcast, like you said, called Ways to Change Your Workplace. So I help my clients to find decent ways to change your workplace. Change is constant, as you know, and change is also overwhelming.

[00:04:41] Prina: So the kind of projects that I'm working on at the moment are all sorts, helping organisations to move their Diversity, equity, and inclusivity programs to be more meaningful at that next level. I've got some leadership development programs that I'm supporting clients on. I'm supporting, I [00:05:00] work primarily with execs and people at the helm of their career to address the funk that they have within their careers, because the higher you go up the ladder, Mel, it's a lonely ride, isn't it?

[00:05:11] Prina: Um, so I do that kind of stuff. I'm just looking at my huge to do list. Um, And yeah, I work globally. So yeah, lots of online training, in person stuff, lots of consulting. And I love what I do because I think like yourself, Mel, it's really varied. Um, and you asked why I do it as well. I do it and how I came across it is, so I've got over 20 years of experience in the corporate world.

[00:05:37] Prina: Um, I feel like a little bit of a dinosaur now, but a good dinosaur.

[00:05:43] Mel: You and me both!

[00:05:43] Prina: We've got experience. So. In the corporate world, I specialized in both areas of HR. So not many people do this. I worked in generalist HR as well as a specialist area called organisational development. And I chose to straddle the both because I really needed [00:06:00] to learn the pain points of the workforce from a generalist HR perspective.

[00:06:04] Prina: And then OD, organisational development is my thing. And I fell in love with that. And that's a proactive arm of HR to stop the fires from even happening in, you know. In the long run, and I, I learned the best, so, oh gosh, I'm qualified in all sorts of stuff in an organisational development sense. Uh, lots of culture change, and lots of human behavior change.

[00:06:28] Prina: So I focus on, specifically, organisational culture change and human behavior change. And Mel, can I just say, I've been an early reader of your book, and I'm loving all of the social psychology and the little tidbits that you've got in your book. I'm a fan.

[00:06:45] Mel: Oh, thank you so much. And I mean, so much coming from you as well, because I value your opinion so highly because you are, as my niece said, after we met, she's so smart.

[00:06:56] Mel: I'm like, I know she is so smart. Um, and, and [00:07:00] look, I think we're, we're two peas in a pod in that, um, we, we definitely put people and their experience at the center of everything we do. It's. That's quite a strong alignment with us, which kind of brings me to my next question, which is you coach a lot of leaders and teams, and I know how busy you are, but from a comms point of view, what are some of their biggest challenges?

[00:07:23] Prina: Oh, my gosh, Mel. I tell my mum this all the time. I would say probably 90 percent of the time. Miscommunication or misinterpretation of said communication. So I work with, you know, teams at the height of their success. Wonderful that they're all working really well. Then I support teams at the other end as well, who need to... expand and get better and optimize essentially. And the teams who need to especially optimize, there's something broken there. And that often comes down to communication, Mel. And that [00:08:00] might be communication with each other, or it might be that top down communication from the leader and what's lacking and the missing pieces there.

[00:08:07] Prina: And, you know, we work with so many channels within the workplace now as well. I'm glad I'm not in the workforce. Oh my gosh. It would be so overwhelming. Imagine there'd be like Teams messages popping up and then people have text messages and emails and whatever else happens as well within the workforce.

[00:08:25] Prina: I think from a comms perspective, Mel, I'm really focusing on that for this conversation. There's a lot of overwhelm out there, and I think that overwhelm creates the issues.

[00:08:35] Mel: I think you're exactly right there. And it's something I've seen with some of my clients in the last year or two. Uh, there was all these new channels just brought online very quickly through COVID.

[00:08:46] Mel: You know, ripping the bandaid off quick. We need teams. We need virtual. We need this. We need that. Because all of a sudden everyone's offline. Normally when we bring in a new channel. We take it much more slowly and we, you know, we integrate and we make sure we're not doubling up. But now what we're [00:09:00] finding is people are so confused because where am I getting my information from?

[00:09:03] Mel: Did I see that in an email? Did I see that in the team's chat? Or did I see that in a slack slack message? Or, you know, was it? I don't know where to look anymore. And that you're right. There's so much coming through. It was interesting. I was reading some stats a little while ago. End of last year, there was some research around how disruptive chat apps are at work, and it was, I think it was around an estimate of 157 hours of lost productivity per employee per year in Australia, just because of chat apps, just because of chat apps, um, and that's just, you know, a symptom of a bigger problem.

[00:09:39] Mel: Problem not understanding, not having an alignment as a team on what we use what channel for?, and how do I find the information I need to do my job well?

[00:09:49] Prina: Absolutely. So, and, you know, from, from our own personal perspective, you know, might go on Instagram just to post something about my business and half an hour later, I've been chatting with Mel or something.

[00:09:59] Prina: From a human [00:10:00] behavior perspective, we are like this anyway, and then we add this to a workplace, of course it's going to be the same at work, but compounded, because we've got our normal work to do, and I guess human communication sometimes is a bit lacking as well.

[00:10:13] Mel: Absolutely. Yeah, which brings me to, you said something just before about miscommunication and misinterpretation. Can you talk a little bit more about what they look like in practice?

[00:10:25] Prina: Yeah, so, oh my gosh, okay, miscommunication. So often, um, Um, nowadays what I'm finding is leaders are so, so busy as well. So I've got such compassion for leaders and there's a lot on them in terms of expectations of how they have to deliver.

[00:10:41] Prina: When they are trying to deliver messages, it's often quick and okay, I've just sent them an email. It's all good. We've done it. Or I've sent a message on our, you know, on our team's channel. Job done. No, not at all. Often the missing pieces, and I think leaders often forget this, is you, the [00:11:00] leader, have had this information for so long, you've been incubating it, you've been dealing with it, and you've just dropped this bomb off a message, whatever it might be, to your team, who've not had any heads up about it, they've not had any, I guess, conversation about it as well, you know?

[00:11:17] Prina: And I think that's one of the big pieces that's, uh, A pain point for leaders. They are busy, therefore they're relying on these channels to quickly communicate.

[00:11:26] Mel: Mm. Yeah. I see that a lot.

[00:11:29] Prina: So the reliance, I think, on all of these wonderful tools and technology that we have, I think we need to revisit to see how we actually use them to our benefit rather than the opposite.

[00:11:40] Mel: Yep, I totally agree. So that's some of the bigger challenges. But how does leadership communication contribute to the culture of a team?

[00:11:50] Prina: Yeah, okay. Leadership, communication and culture of a team. So much so. Um, so don't rely on the internet, you know, have the conversation, please. It's [00:12:00] on the internet. I hate that line. I just, please don't. Um, so how does leadership communication affect organisational culture, massively so. There's this huge void.

[00:12:14] Prina: The other thing that I'm seeing now, Mel, as well, is from an organisational perspective, that top down messaging is really not often getting through. And I know this is something that you cover in your book so beautifully, so I'm so glad it's going to come out to the world. The other missing piece is, let's say the executive will have an executive meeting.

[00:12:32] Prina: They'll decide on the way forward. They will inform the next level down. Let's call them the general managers. Then the general managers will have their own versions of the story and trickle down, trickle down, trickle down. And because of the fact that we are all making up our stories in an inconsistent manner, It is impacting our organisational culture, that cascade of information, it's just lost its meaning, it's lost its [00:13:00] It's sentiment as well, by the time it gets down to the ground floor.

[00:13:05] Prina: When I'm talking with leaders, there's different ways of communicating to get buy in. So you have to tell. Sometimes, tough luck. I'm telling you, this is how it is. So, I'll use the example of COVID, the pandemic. Mel, there's a pandemic happening. I don't know what on earth is happening in terms of the bigger picture societally, but we as a workforce have decided to ensure that everyone can work from home.

[00:13:28] Prina: I'm telling you. Go and work from home. That's telling, that's really directing. And as a leader, you have to have that. Then sometimes you have to sell. Mel, now, I'm thinking about this idea in terms of our next team project. Uh, I think it will be beneficial because of blah blah blah for your role. What do you reckon Mel?

[00:13:50] Prina: So I'm buying, I'm getting your buy in here. Tell, sell. Uh, and then there's test. And now, we're really using the team's brain to test. [00:14:00] Okay, and it could be jumping off, okay, so I've got that idea, Mel says yes to it. Let's, as a team, brainstorm it. Let's just break the crap out of it and see how it works. So this is communication at that next level.

[00:14:13] Prina: Tell, sell, test. Consult is the other one. And then we might have to go out to our stakeholders and consult with them. Okay. Stakeholders, we've decided upon this is the way forward. What do you think? How are we gonna go forward? This is gonna be benefit of you, for you in this manner, blah blah blah.

[00:14:30] Prina: That's one way. And then co create is at the apex of the buy in kind of ladder and co creation is huge And this is, I'll give an example of this. So now we've decided on the way forward. We've spoken with our stakeholders They've given us the thumbs up. So this new let's say comms Change toolkit that we are creating as the comms team.

[00:14:53] Prina: I know your audience are primarily comms people and change people. We've got the go ahead for this. So why [00:15:00] don't we now co-create it with our team and now our stakeholders. And I think as a leader, you need to know. And as a comms person, you need to know when to influence your leaders to tell, to sell, to test, to consult, or to co create.

[00:15:16] Mel: I love that framework. Tell, sell, test, consult and co create. That's brilliant. And it does sound like, uh, you know, to your earlier point, that this disconnect between the people in the mothership and the people on the ground happens when we A.

[00:15:33] Mel: The top down communication doesn't filter through through that cascade. But B, it's not coming up the chain either. It's not being listened to from the ground.

[00:15:40] Prina: Yeah, absolutely. Because let's talk about culture surveys and, you know, most organisations run them, let's say every 18 months or two years. In between, what the hell are you doing? You cannot just rely on these culture surveys. You are not a tool. So you cannot rely on this thing, which is a culture survey tool, to be your frigging [00:16:00] guideline and your basic, you know, uh, tool to get you going to have an organisational culture that is great. You need to have your own voice. You need to have your own language and when I used to work in comms in, oh, when I used to work in OD internally, I partnered, I was so lucky Mel, to partner with the best comms people who understood the difference. This is another thing that's in your book, which I'm so glad you've covered. They understood the difference between being an internal comms person, we really need that, 100%.

[00:16:28] Prina: They are gurus in their own right. But then when we're working on culture change or change projects, we need a change comms person. And that's a different brain because they tap into the psychology and the human needs of aspects of all of us from a change perspective. So the best, best comms people I've worked with had more of a change comms kind of brain and they understood the human psyche and tapped into it.

[00:16:55] Prina: In a positive way, not in a manipulative way.

[00:16:58] Mel: Yeah.

[00:16:58] Mel: Hundred percent, yes. [00:17:00] Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, people who follow me on LinkedIn probably know I bang on about that difference all the time because, and I see it all the time, but also I see these roles come up of a change comms manager and what they mean is.

[00:17:16] Mel: Somebody who can do the change management and the comms management, like, no, those are two different roles and you're just setting a person up to fail by, by having those two roles, it's, it's asking way too much. And, uh, even just this week, I've been working on, um, with a client and they want to mush the change plan with the comms plan into one.

[00:17:36] Mel: And I'm like, well, where's the learning and development plan? Where's the leadership plan? Why are they not? You know, put up there on the same level as comms. Comms alone cannot change a culture.

[00:17:46] Prina: Yes, and this is the exact point. And I know we're going to allude to this shortly as well.

[00:17:51] Prina: In terms of learning, if you are making a change, we are going from here to there. We don't know what there is. So we need some [00:18:00] form of learning as well. And when often change happens in an organisation, the expectation is done. Off you go on your merry way. No, we need to hold people's hands. We need to retrain them often.

[00:18:16] Mel: Absolutely. So speaking of learning. What are some of your top three to five tips for leaders on how they could create some really great experiences for their teams?

[00:18:27] Prina: Okay. I'm very, very pedantic about this one. I have one top tip. First off, let me tell you, and a lot of my clients have got it. All you need from a leadership perspective is to allow your team to bring them up just out of business as usual.

[00:18:47] Prina: Just bring them up from whatever they might be drowning in. Four times a year, and Mel, I call these team health sessions or team optimization sessions. And I've been running them for a while with some [00:19:00] amazing, like, beautiful teams. And what this enables teams to do, Mel, is just stop and smell the roses.

[00:19:07] Prina: Right. And I, I will work with them to determine what the four sessions may well be. So just once a quarter, four days in a year is all you require as a leader to bring a team out to breathe and to discuss how are we, what are we working on? If there's any strategic elements we need to work on, if there's any change aspects we need to work on, have the conversations.

[00:19:30] Prina: Because often what I'm finding is Mel. organisations and teams jump from one thing to another to another to another without reflecting or whether without having a postmortem, as I call it, you know, so we need to just stop and allow teams to breathe, which was which will enable leaders to breathe as well.

[00:19:51] Prina: The other missing piece in that respect also is if you don't have such sessions, Mel. Leaders are unaware of really what's happening. [00:20:00] So when I hold these sessions, the other thing I ask leaders to do is, please take your leadership hat off. This is a day off for you as well. Just to sit back, observe and participate.

[00:20:11] Prina: You know, so as a leader, I think it's really important for you not always to be a leader. Letting go of control. It's a good thing. Trust me. It's a good thing. But you have to have that trusted facilitator as well. So I work in tandem in partnership with those leaders to say, okay, well, what are the quirks of the team right now?

[00:20:29] Prina: What's happening? So for example, this week, in fact, I have a session happening with an amazing team now. They're an international team. Beautiful, beautiful. I have pinpointed as has the leader, they are all solo high achieving the half the high flyers, but they're all solo agents.

[00:20:49] Mel: Right.

[00:20:49] Prina: The intention now is to bring the team together as a cohesive unit, um, and we're going to do this by actually reflecting on the year that was [00:21:00] and learning about the things that they, as an individual, felt worked really well, things that they hated, things that were surprises, that they were glad it happened. And then anything else. To have this kind of conversation as a team from hearing different perspectives as a leader, I think is invaluable. Because the other thing that we talk about from a psychological perspective, from a comms perspective, everyone knows about it, is that connection. We don't have to be best mates, but I need to connect with you Mel to understand your ways of working, how you are, you know in terms of when you are stressed potentially, what kind of support you need, if as a leader I know that and I can connect with you better - I'm going to be a better leader for you and you're going to be a better worker for me as well.

[00:21:51] Prina: So it's win win.

[00:21:53] Mel: Yeah, I love that. And that's a great tip. And I think you're right, there's, uh, I'm doing some work at the moment for a client on a [00:22:00] bit of an internal comms audit, basically, but some of the results that have come back from our research have really shown people are really missing that face to face time.

[00:22:09] Mel: And yet it's the number one thing they find the most valuable as a source of communication. So it's about, well, how do we set up. Businesses to be able to give teams and leaders that time off the floor off the books. You know, and have those good conversations and, um, yeah, really make sure that everybody's, I know the word alignment comes up a lot, but actually is aligned.

[00:22:33] Mel: You know, there's, there's agreement, there's alignment, uh, and even just feeling walking away from there, feeling like I'm feel really well informed, you know, that basic outcome of communication that often so fails us just... do I feel well informed yes or no, uh, yeah, can make a huge difference. So. How do we get leaders on board?

[00:22:55] Mel: You know, you do a lot of this sort of stuff with teams. How do you get them on board with actually [00:23:00] running these workshops, actually saying and investing in learning and development?

[00:23:05] Prina: Okay. The first question I asked them is, do you understand the concept of balcony time? Some do, some don't. So for those who don't understand the concept of balcony time, balcony time is taking dedicated time out of your work day to step up onto the, onto the balcony to have a bird's eye view of everything that is happening.

[00:23:29] Prina: Many leaders say to me, what is that about? No, I don't do that. Well, hello, we need to do that then. And then I talk about the other thing, are you on the dance floor as in operational? Are you busy, busy, busy, just running from one project to another? Or do you allow yourself that balcony time?

[00:23:47] Prina: So I think Mel, using that analogy, I think really gets leaders thinking differently for themselves. And then they see the benefit to their team as well. When they allow their team this balcony time, people [00:24:00] shine. The conversations that happen are something else. And, you have to use a good facilitator, absolutely so, and you have to have that trust in the facilitator, as I said as well.

[00:24:09] Prina: But my gosh, it will propel your team to just amazing new ways of working and connecting differently as well. Now, I'm very mindful of the fact, like I said earlier, we don't have to be best mates, but we really have to do work well together. And that's what these sessions are about. It's allowing yourself just to breathe and get away from the everyday operational.

[00:24:32] Prina: Business as usual kind of work to take that helicopter view and the long term view as well, you know because change is so fast as you know, as everyone knows. We need to keep on top of it. That ain't gonna change, we have to change the way that we work.

[00:24:46] Mel: Yeah, I love that balcony view and that analogy of the dance floor. I think, yeah, yeah, using analogies like that sounds like can really help people get out of their heads almost and start to think differently because you're [00:25:00] asking them to think differently. To visualise something quite different. So I love that. That's awesome. Prina. Hey, one more question before we get to our final few questions.

[00:25:07] Mel: And this one wasn't on the brief, but you are writing a book yourself. Can you tell us a bit about what it's about?

[00:25:14] Prina: Oh man, I am. My book is about leaving a legacy in the workplace. It's a huge, huge, huge endeavor. Now this came about a few years ago. I was speaking with someone and he said, my CEO is leaving.

[00:25:27] Prina: I don't know what to do. I don't know how to address him. Now, okay, we'll ask him what the legacy he wishes to leave is and how you can support him as an OD practitioner this person was. Then I've been incubating it for a while Mel, and we, we caught up last year and I told you I had a million ideas, but this is one of the million ideas that I had.

[00:25:48] Prina: And I think Mel. Every single one of us can leave a legacy within the workplace, whether you are an executive, whether you're a leader, or whether you're a team. So this book is for all three [00:26:00] of them. Depending on what you're doing, every single day you can leave a freaking legacy. You need to define what that legacy is, and I think that's often the missing piece, and I think that's often the thing that causes people this, this funk.

[00:26:15] Prina: I'm doing my nine to five job. I'm not feeling it, Prina. This is so much what I hear. Even people at the apex of their career, Prina, I have been dragged through my career, you know. I've been tapped on the shoulder all the time. I'm like, okay, well, what do you want to do?

[00:26:29] Prina: So it's tapping into that individual or that team's heart, I guess, and their essence to make the workplace less shitty. That's what I'm all, what I'm all about. Um, so what is a legacy that you wish to leave? And I think that's the missing piece.

[00:26:46] Prina: Because from an organisational psychology perspective, we also know. Every single one of us wants to contribute in some way or another. So this book is going to help you tap into that. And it's a really, like your book, it's a useful book. It's a [00:27:00] practical book, so it's going to be your guide. It's going to be a little bible for any job.

[00:27:04] Prina: You can start a job now, use the book. Or if you start another job, you can eat sleep and repeat essentially.

[00:27:10] Mel: Oh, I love it. I can't wait to get my hands on a copy. I'll absolutely be one of your early readers. Okay, so I have three questions I ask every guest at the end of each episode. Are you ready for those?

[00:27:24] Prina: Let's do it.

[00:27:24] Mel: Okay. Number one. What's the best communication lesson you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:27:32] Prina: Oh my gosh, okay the best communication lesson. I need to work out when I need to apply brevity - Get to the point. Versus when I need to blah and expand the point, okay?

[00:27:47] Prina: There's a difference between the two and I need to read the room and work out when I need to just say it as it is or when I need to go off on one and, you know, have a monologue sometimes as [00:28:00] well. There's a difference there. And I think for leaders it's really important to decide when you need to just get to the point and use brevity or when you need to expand your comms as well.

[00:28:10] Mel: That's awesome. That's a great lesson. And I'd also add to that too, when you are looking to brevity, make sure it's not blunt. You know, it's about checking the tone as well when you're in that space.

[00:28:19] Mel: Yeah. Next question. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:28:27] Prina: Okay, going back to the brevity, decide, work out when you need to talk at length and work out when you need to just get to the freaking point. The other thing I'm talking to here as well is we need to understand therefore people's listening styles and their calm styles.

[00:28:44] Prina: Mel, this is the other thing that I really help teams with, sometimes people just get pissed off with each other because they bang on as they say. Now and that's that's not a personal thing It's just a communications preference. So I think if [00:29:00] we learn about each other's communication styles and listening styles It would make all the difference.

[00:29:05] Mel: I love it. Have a brave conversation, you know, just up front. I love that. Yeah. Okay. Final question. Who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:29:15] Prina: You know, it's you, you, I love your podcast. The book is amazing. Um, I also have my own coach, uh, her name is Dori Clark, uh, Dori, yeah, she's all about brevity as well.

[00:29:32] Prina: She gets to the point, which is what I like and my communication style is yet get to the point if you hadn't picked that up right now. So yeah, Dori is amazing as well. Then there's another podcast that I listen to, which you might as well. It's on NPR. It's called Hidden Brain. And that's about, yeah, it's an interesting one.

[00:29:50] Prina: So, uh, Ravi Shankar Vadantam is his name, and he, he taps into the human psychology of the human brain, whether it be in [00:30:00] relation to happiness, in relation to depression, in relation to the workplace, in relation to the way that we communicate. There's so much there, so I pick up so much from all of that as well.

[00:30:10] Prina: It's really, really interesting.

[00:30:12] Mel: I love that. And, uh, again, I think we're very aligned on the, uh, psychology piece as well, which is so fascinating, absolutely fascinating.

[00:30:21] How good is Prina! She just has so much gold. And honestly, she's just such an experienced leadership coach. Please go follow her on Instagram. So that was part, one of my chat with Prina. Part two is next week and we flip it around and she will be interviewing me. About all things change comms. So look out for that episode next week, make sure you like and subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss it.

[00:30:49] And thanks again for tuning into Less Chatter, More Matter - keep doing amazing things. Bye for now.

[00:30:55] Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, [00:31:00] a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm your host, Mel Lloyd, and in this show, I will give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights. You can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business, and never looked back.

[00:31:23] These days, I use my 20 plus years of experience to help guide organizations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, cat mom to Cookie, auntie to 12 nieces and nephews, a yoga teacher, and a group fitness fanatic. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and helpful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:31:48] Mel: Uh, I'm so, I just feel so lucky to have had this discussion with you. So, uh, I guess it's time to turn the tables a little bit and see what questions you've got for me.

[00:31:58] Mel: Mal, so [00:32:00] from a comms perspective, tell me about your book. Well,

[00:32:05] Mel: it is the book that I think is missing from the market. So I feel like we've seen a lot of work around change management over the last 10, 15 years. Yeah, there's John Cotter, for example, all his books on change management. Uh, there's a lot of stuff out there around the ProSci and ADCAR methodology, which has some communication element to it, but it really is about change management.

[00:32:27] Mel: And then there's a lot of books. Around communication, corporate comms, there's even a, there's a few out there on internal comms, not a great deal, but there are some, uh, media relations, public relations, as we have become more specialized in different communications roles, there are very few people who really stick with a generalist role.

[00:32:45] Mel: Now, the gap for me was this change communication piece. How do you communicate well about change and to help drive change? And so this book has sort of come about from. All those experiences I've gathered over the years [00:33:00] and creating my own framework to help other people communicate change better. So I really do hope it becomes that bit of a go to guide for anyone who's looking to communicate about change, whether you're a communications practitioner or not.

[00:33:15] Mel: A

[00:33:15] Mel: hundred percent. Can you, so I love the differentiation you have on the table that you've got as well. Can you, High level. Can you explain to me the difference between an internal comms person and a change comms person?

[00:33:28] Mel: Yeah, 100%. So internal comms and change comms, neither of them are more special or more important than the other two.

[00:33:36] Mel: I want to make that point. They're just different specializations. So internal comms usually has a role in helping to drive the strategy. To support the CEO and the C suite in developing their internal brands. Uh, they often manage a lot of the channels on most of the internal comms channels as well. So things like your intranets, your Slack, your Yammers, uh, town halls, all those sorts of things.

[00:33:58] Mel: So they have a big [00:34:00] part to play in the. internal brand of an organisation. Also, they usually get involved in some of those campaigns, you know, things like Safety Week or Harmony Day or those sorts of things as well. So while there are elements of change to the role, it really is more about building that sort of collegiate workforce.

[00:34:18] Mel: It's about employee engagement, strategy, you know, aligning people to goals and purpose of an organisation. Change communication is really aligned to the organisation. Specific projects initiatives that are about transformation. They're about change. So they can be things like, you know, changing systems and processes that you use, mergers and acquisitions, uh, great big structure changes in organisations, all those sorts of big change things where we're asking people to not only know something different, but feel something different and do something different as well.

[00:34:52] Mel: And change isn't always bad. Change can be really good, but sometimes it's really messy as well. So, or tricky. So a change [00:35:00] practitioner or a change comms practitioner looks at how people communicate, how people respond to change, and they help to craft strategies that help anticipate some of those responses as well.

[00:35:13] Mel: Yeah. It's the anticipation piece, isn't it? And the fact that they tap into the human psyche in relation to change. Um, you talk about change fatigue in the book as well. What is it and how can we address it, Mel?

[00:35:30] Mel: So change fatigue is very common, unfortunately, and it's become more common in the last few years where people are essentially burned out by the rate of change, not just the rate of change, but the scope of change.

[00:35:43] Mel: It's not just little changes anymore. We're talking big, massive transformational change that's been happening, and it happens more and more often. In most organisations, so it gets to a point where people just don't care anymore. To be honest, they're just over it. They do not [00:36:00] want to engage with any more change.

[00:36:01] Mel: They can't handle any more change. They feel like they're being pushed from pillar to post that their world is constantly changing. And when that is the case, there's a huge lack of uncertainty. A lot of the time. An uncertainty breeds fear and fear breeds poor behavior and poor performance. So that's the outcome of change.

[00:36:20] Mel: Fatigue is you really find you have a very disengaged workforce and productivity and performance really drop. And unfortunately, as I said, it's very, very common now more than ever.

[00:36:32] Mel: Yeah, oh, we've got security needs which aren't being met and therefore fear happens as well I know in your book you cover that.

[00:36:38] Mel: In your book you've got this beautiful quote by George Bernard Shaw who is a playwright and a political activist and he said the biggest single problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. Yes. Just drop the mic there first, can we expand upon this from a [00:37:00] leadership perspective and you talk about leaders as well in this relation.

[00:37:04] Mel: Can you expand on that point, please? Yeah,

[00:37:07] Mel: well, firstly, I think it's telling that this quote is so old now, so this is not a new problem

[00:37:13] Mel: and

[00:37:13] Mel: yet here we are. Uh, but yes, from a leadership perspective, it's similar to what we were talking about in our conversation earlier. It's like I've sent that email.

[00:37:23] Mel: Why aren't they doing what I want them to do? Yeah, it's because you just sent that email, you know, your team may not be people who respond well or communicate well from a written comms perspective. Maybe they get more out of it when you have a conversation or there's a visual or something along those lines.

[00:37:41] Mel: It's the fact that you have such. diverse audiences that we need to cater for that one email will not change behavior. You need to repackage your message in different ways to meet people's different needs. And that's what's at the heart of it is the audience. If you're coming at it from your own perspective, then you are just going to send that email [00:38:00] and assume that everybody's read it.

[00:38:01] Mel: You haven't come at it from your audience's perspective. So that's one of the biggest issues I see with leadership communication is they don't think that deeply about their audience. And so they are communicating in a way that suits the leader, not the way that suits the team.

[00:38:17] Prina: Boom. Okay. Now let's follow on with this then.

[00:38:22] Prina: I'm liking interviewing you. So let's go to the trust aspect, which is a massive part of your book as well. And there's three T's of trust. Can I talk to that? Absolutely. Thoughtful, transparent, and timely. Talk to me, Mel, about the three T's of trust from your perspective,

[00:38:43] Mel: please. Yeah, for sure. And these are three principles that I apply to all communication, not just change comms.

[00:38:49] Mel: They are particularly helpful in crisis comms as well. So I do teach that as part of the crisis comms work as well. But thoughtful means empathetic, curious. [00:39:00] It's about going back to, again, understanding your audience. And thinking about things from their perspective and also thinking about their different personality types, the different ways they communicate the cultural aspects of their communication, even the diversity, inclusion, accessibility needs of their communication as well.

[00:39:19] Mel: So it really is thinking about that. But also, if I put my audience hat on, how would I be feeling about this change and having that empathy? timely piece is so important because you want to be the person to tell the story. You don't want them to hear about it from the rumor mill first because people remember the first message they hear.

[00:39:41] Mel: It's the primacy effect. So if what they've heard about this upcoming, you know, new digital system through the grapevine is that it's really crap. Then even when you come out with your message, it's too late. They've been primed to think it's going to be crap. So timely, we need to be on the front foot. We need to get ahead of the rumors, but we also [00:40:00] need to make sure that people are kept up to date as the change progresses.

[00:40:03] Mel: So that's a big part of that as well. I want to feel well informed. I don't want to hear about it later on, or I wish I'd known that two weeks ago because I would have done something differently. You know, it's so frustrating when communication isn't timely, and then the third piece is transparent, and this is transparent with boundaries.

[00:40:22] Mel: So, for example, if your organisation is about to go through a big restructure, there's obviously industrial relations components to that that you need to be. Very careful of as well as people's privacy and those sorts of things. So transparent within boundaries, but it is about, you know, being open, genuine, authentic, honest.

[00:40:41] Mel: And if there's things that you can't talk about, that's okay. Just say, look, I can't talk about that right now for these reasons. So just being transparent about the reasons why can even help. And

[00:40:51] Prina: that gives you even more credibility as a leader, therefore, yes, you're addressing it, but you're saying, I can't actually expand upon it, [00:41:00] my hands are tied, and people respect you for that, 100%.

[00:41:02] Prina: Absolutely, yeah. Have you heard of, I'm going to sidetrack a bit, have you heard of the concept of Nemawashi? It's a Japanese concept of Nemawa. Of, uh, consulting essentially. So Nemawashi, correct me if I'm wrong, and a little bit of poetic license here. It's laying, it's related to the word of the root. So it's laying the groundwork for whatever change or stakeholder engagement that you're doing.

[00:41:27] Prina: And that is, you're consulting before you're officially consulting. Okay, Mel? So we've got a restructure happening, we know that's happening within a year. But you are my biggest stakeholder, so I'm going to come and talk to you about the fact that Okay, Mel? The executive has stated that there's a restructure happening next year.

[00:41:44] Prina: What do you need? How can I help you? What are the missing pieces? And then you're already on board beforehand. So, you know, in terms of your stakeholders, you've got to get that right as well. But as you rightly said, you've engaged with [00:42:00] them pre, pre change, but then you have to continually communicate with them throughout the change as well.

[00:42:06] Prina: That's often the missing piece. So, you know, from a HR perspective, they have this thing called consultation, which is two, two weeks and it gets on my nerves. So this is me getting on my high horse, Mel. HR people sometimes, industrial relations, especially. Yeah. We've told people what's happening. We've done it.

[00:42:26] Prina: So that's a tick in the box. No. What a prime opportunity to have a beautiful conversation about. What's going to happen? Why it's going to happen? The benefit for you. Do you have any questions? Do you have any queries? Why not listen to the naysayers? Because often Mel, they have such valid points to make as well, don't they?

[00:42:48] Prina: Which will really influence our change project as well, because you know, if people in the ivory tower have decided whatever they've decided, we also need to hear the other perspective. And I also think that's a huge missing piece from that.

[00:42:59] Mel: A [00:43:00] hundred percent. I agree. And that kind of speaks to one of the models I share in the book is around those four change personality types, you know, and one of them is, you know, Penelli who default answer is no for anything to do with change, just no, but that doesn't mean that they are not important because as you say, they can raise.

[00:43:21] Mel: Issues and challenges that other people haven't seen, you know, almost that devil's advocate role and you need that, you need that balanced view on a change. It's not always, you know, sunshine and lollipops and everybody has a view to contribute. And a lot of the time, those note Nelly's have really deep organisational knowledge that you just may not be aware of.

[00:43:41] Mel: So it's. You absolutely have to tap into that

[00:43:45] Prina: and the other things we need to tap into. So let's refer. So we've got the Nope Nelly. We've got the Happy Helen who's just like, yay, on board. We can use them as a change champions. We can use them to advocate for us. We've got the cautious cows and people are cautious [00:44:00] sometimes when change does happen because there might be mistrust.

[00:44:02] Prina: So we need to address those cautions, those fears, essentially, And then there's the fence sitting Fred, and sometimes people sit on the fence because I don't know what's going to happen around the corner, I'll just watch from a side and, and I'll suss it out. Absolutely true.

[00:44:21] Mel: It's funny, I was watching that new ABC documentary last night on the, uh, Nemesis.

[00:44:25] Mel: So the, uh, the years of the Tony Abbott and then the Malcolm Turnbull and then the Scott Morrison leadership in the liberal party and watching that Scott Morrison was absolutely the fence sitting Fred. He was going to hitch his wagon to whoever was coming out on top. So he just. Stood back and let it happen.

[00:44:42] Mel: And if you're watching that even just last night, like hello, you're, you are absolutely a fence sitting friend.

[00:44:50] Prina: Personalities are out there. It's real. So let's frigging address them in the word. The other thing we really need to address and you beautifully put this, and there's a diagram as well in your book [00:45:00] is the.

[00:45:02] Prina: You sing to my ears, girl. A comms plan cannot be a stand alone document when there's a change project happening. So you talk about the fact that we need to have a project plan. We need to have a change plan. They're different things. We need to have training. And then we have to have a comms plan and a leadership plan.

[00:45:25] Prina: Mel, can you expand?

[00:45:27] Mel: Absolutely. So what I've found. In the past is that a sometimes my comms plan would become the project plan because people just hadn't bothered making a project plan and then they'd say we need a comms plan for this and they take your comms plan and present it as a project plan, but you cannot have a good comms plan without a good project plan.

[00:45:46] Mel: So that's number one, your comms plan is meant to support the project plan. So in an ideal world, we'd have our project plan, which steps out who all the people who are involved, all the, all the parts of actually making this project come to [00:46:00] life, you know, all the tracks of different work, key milestones that have to be met, the budget, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:46:06] Mel: And from that, you get the change plan that goes, okay, well, what is the change and what does that look like for different groups of people? And. Then we can develop our comms plan, training plans and leadership plans to help bring that change to life. Now, what I find is that communications is seen as like it's the number one thing for change.

[00:46:27] Mel: But I would argue that leadership is probably more important because if leaders aren't role modeling the change, if they're not helping to share feedback, if they're not, uh, reviewing things, if they're not removing roadblocks for people, then it doesn't matter how many beautiful emails and internet articles I write.

[00:46:44] Mel: That change is not going to happen. So again, we need to have these things to support the change and the change plan should step out all the impacts and all those things. And then we can take that information, go, okay, what will that mean for my communication strategy? What will that mean for the training and [00:47:00] development that needs to happen?

[00:47:00] Mel: What will that mean for the leadership piece as well? And so again, this is ideal world scenario that we would have these, uh, but. Realistically, you should at least have a project plan and not expect the comms plan to fill the void of the change plan.

[00:47:17] Prina: Yeah, 100%. Mel, you touched on this, but I want to expand on this because this is an obvious one, but this is a huge one.

[00:47:25] Prina: Um, I'll give you context. So I'm working with a client. Um, they're in the health industry. They've sent out this mass email to, you know, doctors, nurses, everything in between. And it's in HR lingo. I read it myself, and I didn't understand it. So, you talk about writing from the reader's perspective. Can you get on your high horse and talk to me about

[00:47:50] Mel: that?

[00:47:51] Mel: Absolutely. Well, there's two parts to that, and especially based on the The example you just gave, one is jargon and the overuse of [00:48:00] jargon and language that's really inaccessible by a lot of people. So when we talk with jargon, A, there's a good chance a lot of people just aren't going to understand it, especially using technology terms, HR terms, you know, who's going to understand that?

[00:48:13] Mel: And again, you haven't thought about your audience in that respect. But B, there's some really interesting research around the fact that. When people do use a lot of jargon and academic language and think they sound smarter, actually, people don't think you're smart. They think you're much dumber than you are.

[00:48:27] Mel: So there's that side of things. The other side of it is, and I just saw this essay with some key messages somebody had drafted and asked me to review. When we write from the writer's perspective, we use a lot of words like we, our, this. So when we talk about benefits. It's often always about the benefits to the business, not about the benefits for the audience.

[00:48:48] Mel: So when we start to flip it and use more of you and your terms and talk about what this means for you is. So, for example, this particular piece was, I think, around, uh, inequality. [00:49:00] technology piece that was coming in. And the writer's perspective was very much, you know, we'll get a better picture of what we can improve.

[00:49:08] Mel: And, you know, we'll be able to audit ourselves better. And if I enjoy blogs on the floor, I don't give a damn what is good for them. What does this mean for me? So to flip that to a reader's perspective, it would be more like you'll have more transparency, you'll have more confidence in knowing that.

[00:49:24] Mel: Incidents, your report will actually be tracked and will be able to be addressed more quickly. You know, you it's about you. Uh, so that is a huge challenge. And it's interesting when I run training when I point that out to people, it's like this little light bulb goes off above the head and then we do an exercise where I ask them to write something and then I say to them.

[00:49:44] Mel: Okay. Was that the writer's perspective or the reader's perspective? And straight away about 70 percent of them go, Oh, damn it. I did it again because it's so ingrained in us that corporate communication, you know, to talk about our, and we, and the business and blah, blah, blah, that it's [00:50:00] really hard habit to break.

[00:50:01] Mel: So yeah, it's just, once you're aware of it, you start to really notice it everywhere.

[00:50:06] Prina: Totally. I've got two more questions for you. One. It's a juicy one, and it's a cool one. Um, can you share the case study of Kmart?

[00:50:16] Mel: Yes. So for people who are listening, who are not from Australia, Kmart is a discount department store, which, uh, if, if you talk to anybody in Australia, most of us love Kmart.

[00:50:31] Mel: Uh, you go in there for one thing, you come out with a trolley full of homewares. You didn't. But now you have them. Uh, so it is a very, very popular store, but back about 10, 15 years ago, it was really, really struggling. So it's owned by the same company that also owns Target. Target was doing extremely well.

[00:50:51] Mel: Kmart was going down the gurgler and they brought in a new CEO who really turned it around and. The way they did that was apart from, you know, [00:51:00] looking at their product lines and the supply chains and all those sorts of things is they looked at how do we communicate this change to people and the agency that they worked with sapient nitro, they came up with this concept of expect to change.

[00:51:14] Mel: So it played on that. You're still going to have that discount. You're still going to cheaper lines and all those sorts of things, but you can expect us to do better. And they went about really transforming the whole company, not just in the products they offered, but how the stores felt and looked. The type of interactions they had with people internally and externally, and it was really a great example of putting people at the heart of change.

[00:51:40] Mel: They really thought about the customer experience, but also the employee experience. And how do we bring that to the heart of the change and the change communication? And I think the communication also represented those three T's of trust really nicely. There was the transparency piece. They're very open about what the challenges were.

[00:51:58] Mel: What we need to change, how we're doing it, they were [00:52:00] thoughtful, so they very much listened to their people. They did some big in depth research with their staff and with customers, and they shared back those findings and they were timely. They kept people up to date as they went through this journey as well, and it really built trust in the brand to the point now it far outstrips targets revenue.

[00:52:20] Mel: Big time. And we're seeing a lot more targets getting turned into Kmarts. And it really is, uh, quite the transformation story, but it's such a good example of what happens when you put people at the heart of the communication and really build trust around it.

[00:52:35] Prina: A hundred percent. It created such a buzz and no doubt.

[00:52:39] Prina: And as you've alluded to it. Change the organisational culture internally as well. What a three pronged, amazing

[00:52:46] Mel: approach. And that doesn't mean it wasn't easy or wasn't expensive, because it was. But, they stuck to it. Yeah. They

[00:52:53] Prina: did it. They held, they stuck to their guns. Absolutely so. Now Mel. My podcast is called Ways to Change Your [00:53:00] Workplace.

[00:53:00] Prina: And the magic question I ask everybody is if you had a magic wand, Ms. Mel Loy, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace? Get creative, get controversial.

[00:53:12] Mel: I would want everybody to do emotional intelligence training. Absolutely. Everybody from the ground up. Uh, and look, I think that was a turning point for me, my own career.

[00:53:24] Mel: I didn't know what emotional intelligence was, you know, in my early 20s, about 20 years ago, so it was a long time ago doing that training and learning more about it in my own time and, you know, through people like Adam grants of the world has really opened my eyes to how we work together. And how we can have those conversations that matter and not taking things personally, but taking things with curiosity, you know, Oh, that's an unexpected reaction.

[00:53:51] Mel: I wonder why. That person has reacted that way, as opposed to, you know, going off your chops. So I think if everybody [00:54:00] just as a matter of induction in your careers could do emotional intelligence training, that would change so much in terms of morale, in terms of communication, in terms of leadership, and then ultimately productivity in the bottom line.

[00:54:16] Prina: Beautiful. Thank you so much.

[00:54:18] Mel: That's all right. We'll just go change the world. Now, Karina, you and I single handedly.

[00:54:25] Mel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You just need two women in their active work, going for a walk with a coffee and problem solved.

[00:54:33] Prina: I love talking with you, Mel. Thank you. You too.

[00:54:36] Mel: Thank you so much for such a great conversation. I'm. I think people get so much out of what you shared around leadership as well. And I am definitely going to be referencing your framework around the tell, sell, test, consult and co create.

[00:54:50] Mel: I think that's brilliant.

[00:54:51] Prina: It's huge. It's massive. Thank you. And by the way, the book. I have so many notes. I could have asked you a million more questions and I could talk to you for ages, but like, [00:55:00] ooh, key points. Yes. Yes. It's very exciting for any reader as well. I really appreciate it. It really is. I

[00:55:06] Mel: appreciate you reading it.

[00:55:07] Mel: Thank you so much.

[00:55:09] Prina: My pleasure. Have a wonderful day. You too. In terms of the, uh, MP3 and everything, let me know how you want to do it. Yeah,

[00:55:19] Mel: so I'll, um, I should have stopped the recording now.

[00:55:23] Prina: Stop.