[00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm your host, Mel Loy, and in this show, I will give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights. You can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business, and never looked back.

[00:00:27] These days, I use my 20 plus years of experience to help guide organisations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, cat mum to Cookie, aunty to 12 nieces and nephews, a yoga teacher, and a group fitness fanatic. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and helpful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:00:50] Hello, and welcome back to the show. It is so great to have you tuning in for another episode. And also it's so great to hear that many of you are getting such value [00:01:00] out of this show.

[00:01:01] Thanks for sharing your feedback and rating and reviewing the show. It means the world to me. Now, today's episode is part two of a chat we started last week with the wonderful Prina Shah. If you haven't listened to that one yet, hit pause, go back and have a listen. A quick reminder of Prina's stamp on the world.

[00:01:19] She is a global keynote speaker, coach, consultant, and trainer who specialises in helping teams work better together. And she helps leaders to really build their capability and their confidence. Prina is based in Perth over in Western Australia, and I got to know her through a fantastic network of workshop facilitators and consultants, which I think really shows the power of digital in our lives, that we can build those kinds of relationships from wherever we are.

[00:01:45] Anyway, last week, I interviewed Prina about her insights into leadership communication, The challenges with team communication. And of course I quickly snuck in a question about the book. She's currently writing on leaving a legacy through your work. [00:02:00] Today's episode is part two of that chat where the tables were turned and Prina interviewed me about all things change comms.

[00:02:09] Chatting to Prina is always an absolute delight. And if you haven't already, I encourage you to check out her podcast, ways to change the workplace. The link for that is in the show notes along with her social handles. So you can give her a follow. Okay. Without further ado, let's get stuck into today's episode.

[00:02:28] Mel: So, uh, I guess it's time to turn the tables a little bit and see what questions you've got for me.

[00:02:34] Prina: Mel, so from a comms perspective, tell me about your book.

[00:02:40] Mel: Well, it is the book that I think is missing from the market. So I feel like we've seen a lot of work around change management over the last 10, 15 years. Yeah, there's John Cotter, for example, all his books on change management. Uh, there's a lot of stuff out there around the ProSci and ADCAR methodology, which has [00:03:00] some communication element to it, but it really is about change management.

[00:03:04] Mel: And then there's a lot of books. Around communication, corporate comms, there's even a, there's a few out there on internal comms, not a great deal, but there are some, uh, media relations, public relations. As we have become more specialized in different communications roles, there are very few people who really stick with a generalist role.

[00:03:21] Mel: Now, the gap for me was this change communication piece. How do you communicate well about change and to help drive change? And so this book has sort of come about from... all those experiences I've gathered over the years and creating my own framework to help other people communicate change better. So I really do hope it becomes that bit of a go to guide for anyone who's looking to communicate about change, whether you're a communications practitioner or not.

[00:03:51] Prina: A hundred percent. Can you - so I love the differentiation you have on the table that you've got as well - can you, High level, can you explain to me the [00:04:00] difference between an internal comms person and a change comms person?

[00:04:04] Mel: Yeah, 100%. So internal comms and change comms, neither of them are more special or more important than the other two.

[00:04:12] Mel: I want to make that point. They're just different specialisations. So internal comms usually has a role in helping to drive the strategy; to support the CEO and the C suite in developing their internal brands. Uh, they often manage a lot of the channels on most of the internal comms channels as well. So things like your intranets, your Slack, your Yammers, uh, town halls, all those sorts of things.

[00:04:34] Mel: So they have a big part to play in the internal brand of an organisation. Also, they usually get involved in some of those campaigns, you know, things like Safety Week or Harmony Day or those sorts of things as well. So while there are elements of change to the role, it really is more about building that sort of collegiate workforce.

[00:04:54] Mel: It's about employee engagement, strategy, you know, aligning people to [00:05:00] goals and purpose of an organisation. Change communication is really aligned to the specific projects initiatives that are about transformation. They're about change. So they can be things like, you know, changing systems and processes that you use, mergers and acquisitions, uh, great big structure changes in organisations, all those sorts of big change things where we're asking people to not only know something different, but feel something different and do something different as well.

[00:05:28] Mel: And change isn't always bad. Change can be really good, but sometimes it's really messy as well. So, or tricky. So a change practitioner or a change comms practitioner looks at how people communicate, how people respond to change, and they help to craft strategies that help anticipate some of those responses as well.

[00:05:50] Prina: Yeah. It's the anticipation piece, isn't it? And the fact that they tap into the human psyche in relation to change. Um, you [00:06:00] talk about change fatigue in the book as well. What is it and how can we address it, Mel?

[00:06:06] Mel: So change fatigue is very common, unfortunately, and it's become more common in the last few years where people are essentially burned out by the rate of change, not just the rate of change, but the scope of change.

[00:06:19] Mel: It's not just little changes anymore. We're talking big, massive transformational change that's been happening, and it happens more and more often in most organisations. So it gets to a point where people just don't care anymore. To be honest, they're just over it. They do not want to engage with any more change.

[00:06:37] Mel: They can't handle any more change. They feel like they're being pushed from pillar to post - that their world is constantly changing. And when that is the case, there's a huge lack of uncertainty. A lot of the time. And uncertainty breeds fear and fear breeds poor behavior and poor performance. So that's the outcome of change fatigue is you really find you have a very disengaged [00:07:00] workforce and productivity and performance really drop. And unfortunately, as I said, it's very, very common now more than ever.

[00:07:08] Prina: Yeah, oh, we've got security needs which aren't being met and therefore fear happens as well - I know in your book you cover that.

[00:07:15] Prina: In your book you've got this beautiful quote by George Bernard Shaw who is a playwright and a political activist and he said the biggest single problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.

[00:07:30] Mel: Yes.

[00:07:31] Prina: Just drop the mic there first, can we expand upon this from a leadership perspective and you talk about leaders as well in this relation. Can you expand on that point, please?

[00:07:42] Mel: Yeah, well, firstly, I think it's telling that this quote is so old now, so this is not a new problem and yet here we are. Uh, but yes, from a leadership perspective, it's similar to what we were talking about in our conversation earlier. It's like I've sent that email. Why aren't they doing [00:08:00] what I want them to do? Yeah, it's because you just sent that email, you know, your team may not be people who respond well or communicate well from a written comms perspective. Maybe they get more out of it when you have a conversation or there's a visual or something along those lines.

[00:08:17] Mel: It's the fact that you have such diverse audiences that we need to cater for that, one email will not change behaviour. You need to repackage your message in different ways to meet people's different needs. And that's what's at the heart of it is the audience. If you're coming at it from your own perspective, then you are just going to send that email and assume that everybody's read it.

[00:08:37] Mel: You haven't come at it from your audience's perspective. So that's one of the biggest issues I see with leadership communication is they don't think that deeply about their audience. And so they are communicating in a way that suits the leader, not the way that suits the team.

[00:08:54] Prina: Boom. Okay. Now let's follow on with this then.

[00:08:58] Prina: I'm liking interviewing [00:09:00] you. So let's go to the trust aspect, which is a massive part of your book as well. And there's three T's of trust. Can I talk to that?

[00:09:10] Mel: Absolutely.

[00:09:11] Prina: Thoughtful, transparent, and timely. Talk to me, Mel, about the three T's of trust from your perspective, please.

[00:09:19] Mel: Yeah, for sure. And these are three principles that I apply to all communication, not just change comms.

[00:09:26] Mel: They are particularly helpful in crisis comms as well. So I do teach that as part of the crisis comms work as well. But thoughtful means empathetic, curious. It's about going back to, again, understanding your audience. And thinking about things from their perspective and also thinking about their different personality types, the different ways they communicate the cultural aspects of their communication, even the diversity, inclusion, accessibility needs of their communication as well.

[00:09:55] Mel: So it really is thinking about that. But also, if I put [00:10:00] my audience hat on, how would I be feeling about this change and having that empathy? The timely piece is so important because you want to be the person to tell the story. You don't want them to hear about it from the rumor mill first because people remember the first message they hear.

[00:10:17] Mel: It's the primacy effect. So if what they've heard about this upcoming, you know, new digital system through the grapevine is that it's really crap. Then even when you come out with your message, it's too late. They've been primed to think it's going to be crap. So timely, we need to be on the front foot. We need to get ahead of the rumors, but we also need to make sure that people are kept up to date as the change progresses.

[00:10:39] Mel: So that's a big part of that as well. I want to feel well informed. I don't want to hear about it later on, or I wish I'd known that two weeks ago because I would have done something differently. You know, it's so frustrating when communication isn't timely, and then the third piece is transparent, and this is transparent with boundaries.

[00:10:58] Mel: So, for [00:11:00] example, if your organisation is about to go through a big restructure, there's obviously industrial relations components to that that you need to be... very careful of as well as people's privacy and those sorts of things. So transparent within boundaries, but it is about, you know, being open, genuine, authentic, honest.

[00:11:17] Mel: And if there's things that you can't talk about, that's okay. Just say, look, I can't talk about that right now for these reasons. So just being transparent about the reasons why can even help.

[00:11:27] Prina: And that gives you even more credibility as a leader, therefore, yes - you're addressing it, but you're saying, I can't actually expand upon it, my hands are tied, and people respect you for that, 100%.

[00:11:39] Mel: Absolutely, yeah.

[00:11:40] Prina: Have you heard of, I'm going to sidetrack a bit, have you heard of the concept of Nemawashi? It's a Japanese concept of Nemawa. Of, uh, consulting essentially. So Nemawashi, correct me if I'm wrong, and a little bit of poetic license here. It's laying, it's related to the word of the root. So it's laying the groundwork [00:12:00] for whatever change or stakeholder engagement that you're doing.

[00:12:03] Prina: And that is, you're consulting before you're officially consulting. Okay, Mel? So we've got a restructure happening, we know that's happening within a year. But you are my biggest stakeholder, so I'm going to come and talk to you about the fact that Okay, Mel? The executive has stated that there's a restructure happening next year.

[00:12:21] Prina: What do you need? How can I help you? What are the missing pieces? And then you're already on board beforehand. So, you know, in terms of your stakeholders, you've got to get that right as well. But as you rightly said, you've engaged with them pre, pre change, but then you have to continually communicate with them throughout the change as well.

[00:12:42] Prina: That's often the missing piece. Because you know, we also need to hear the other perspective. And I also think that's a huge missing piece from that.

[00:12:48] Mel: A hundred percent. I agree. And that kind of speaks to one of the models I share in the book is around those four change personality types, you know, and one of them is, you know, Nope [00:13:00] Nelly whose default answer is no for anything to do with change, just no, but that doesn't mean that they are not important because as you say, they can raise.

[00:13:10] Mel: Issues and challenges that other people haven't seen, you know, almost that devil's advocate role and you need that, you need that balanced view on a change. It's not always, you know, sunshine and lollipops and everybody has a view to contribute. And a lot of the time, those Nope Nelly's have really deep organisational knowledge that you just may not be aware of.

[00:13:30] Mel: So it's. You absolutely have to tap into that

[00:13:34] Prina: And the other things we need to tap into. So let's refer - so we've got the Nope Nelly, we've got the Happy Helen who's just like, yay, on board. We can use them as our change champions. We can use them to advocate for us. We've got the Cautious Cals and people are cautious sometimes when change does happen because there might be mistrust.

[00:13:52] Prina: So we need to address those cautions, those fears, essentially, And then there's the Fencesitting Fred, [00:14:00] and sometimes people sit on the fence because I don't know what's going to happen around the corner, I'll just watch from a side and, and I'll suss it out. Absolutely true.

[00:14:10] The other thing we really need to address and you beautifully put this, and there's a diagram as well in your book is that... A comms plan cannot be a stand alone document when there's a change project happening. So you talk about the fact that we need to have a project plan. We need to have a change plan. They're different things. We need to have training. And then we have to have a comms plan and a leadership plan.

[00:14:39] Prina: Mel, can you expand?

[00:14:41] Mel: Absolutely. So what I've found... in the past is that a... sometimes my comms plan would become the project plan because people just hadn't bothered making a project plan and then they'd say we need a comms plan for this and they take your comms plan and present it as a project plan, but you cannot have a good comms plan without a [00:15:00] good project plan.

[00:15:00] Mel: So that's number one, your comms plan is meant to support the project plan. So in an ideal world, we'd have our project plan, which steps out who all the people who are involved, all the, all the parts of actually making this project come to life, you know, all the tracks of different work, key milestones that have to be met, the budget, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:15:21] Mel: And from that, you get the change plan that goes, okay, well, what is the change and what does that look like for different groups of people? And. Then we can develop our comms plan, training plans and leadership plans to help bring that change to life. Now, what I find is that communications is seen as like it's the number one thing for change.

[00:15:41] Mel: But I would argue that leadership is probably more important because if leaders aren't role modeling the change, if they're not helping to share feedback, if they're not, uh, reviewing things, if they're not removing roadblocks for people, then it doesn't matter how many beautiful emails and intranet articles I write.

[00:15:58] Mel: That change is not going to [00:16:00] happen. So again, we need to have these things to support the change and the change plan should step out all the impacts and all those things. And then we can take that information, go, okay, what will that mean for my communication strategy? What will that mean for the training and development that needs to happen?

[00:16:15] Mel: What will that mean for the leadership piece as well? And so again, this is ideal world scenario that we would have these, uh, but... realistically, you should at least have a project plan and not expect the comms plan to fill the void of the change plan.

[00:16:31] Prina: Yeah, 100%. Mel, you touched on this, but I want to expand on this because this is an obvious one, but this is a huge one. Um, I'll give you context. So I'm working with a client. Um, they're in the health industry. They've sent out this mass email to, you know, doctors, nurses, everything in between. And it's in HR lingo. I read it myself, and I didn't understand it. So, you talk about writing [00:17:00] from the reader's perspective. Can you get on your high horse and talk to me about that?

[00:17:05] Mel: Absolutely. Well, there's two parts to that, and especially based on the example you just gave, one is jargon and the overuse of jargon and language that's really inaccessible by a lot of people. So when we talk with jargon, A, there's a good chance a lot of people just aren't going to understand it, especially using technology terms, HR terms, you know, who's going to understand that?

[00:17:27] Mel: And again, you haven't thought about your audience in that respect. But B, there's some really interesting research around the fact that. When people do use a lot of jargon and academic language and think they sound smarter, actually, people don't think you're smart. They think you're much dumber than you are.

[00:17:42] Mel: So there's that side of things. The other side of it is, and I just saw this yesterday with some key messages somebody had drafted and asked me to review. When we write from the writer's perspective, we use a lot of words like we, our, this. So when we talk about benefits. It's often always about the benefits to the business, [00:18:00] not about the benefits for the audience.

[00:18:02] Mel: So when we start to flip it and use more of you and your terms and talk about what this means for you is. So, for example, this particular piece was, I think, around, uh, a new... technology piece that was coming in. And the writer's perspective was very much, you know, we'll get a better picture of what we can improve.

[00:18:22] Mel: And, you know, we'll be able to audit ourselves better. And if I am Joe Bloggs on the floor, I don't give a damn what is good for them. What does this mean for me? So to flip that to a reader's perspective, it would be more like you'll have more transparency, you'll have more confidence in knowing that what incidents, you report will actually be tracked and will be able to be addressed more quickly. You know, it's about you. Uh, so that is a huge challenge. And it's interesting when I run training when I point that out to people, it's like this little light bulb goes off above the head and then we do an exercise where I ask them to write something and then I say to them.

[00:18:58] Mel: Okay. Was that the [00:19:00] writer's perspective or the reader's perspective? And straight away about 70 percent of them go, Oh, damn it. I did it again - because it's so ingrained in us that corporate communication, you know, to talk about our, and we, and the business and blah, blah, blah, that it's really hard habit to break.

[00:19:15] Mel: So yeah, it's just, once you're aware of it, you start to really notice it everywhere.

[00:19:20] Prina: Totally. I've got two more questions for you. One. It's a juicy one, and it's a cool one. Um, can you share the case study of Kmart?

[00:19:30] Mel: Yes. So for people who are listening, who are not from Australia, Kmart is a discount department store, which, uh, if, if you talk to anybody in Australia, most of us love Kmart.

[00:19:46] Mel: Uh, you go in there for one thing, you come out with a trolley full of homewares. You didn't...need, But now you have them. Uh, so it is a very, very popular store, but back about 10, 15 years ago, it was really, really struggling. So it's [00:20:00] owned by the same company that also owns Target. Target was doing extremely well.

[00:20:05] Mel: Kmart was going down the gurgler and they brought in a new CEO who really turned it around and the way they did that was apart from, you know, looking at their product lines and the supply chains and all those sorts of things - is they looked at how do we communicate this change to people and the agency that they worked with sapient nitro, they came up with this concept of expect to change.

[00:20:29] Mel: So it played on that. You're still going to have that discount. You're still going to cheaper lines and all those sorts of things, but you can expect us to do better. And they went about really transforming the whole company, not just in the products they offered, but how the stores felt and looked. The type of interactions they had with people internally and externally, and it was really a great example of putting people at the heart of change.

[00:20:54] Mel: They really thought about the customer experience, but also the employee experience. And how do we [00:21:00] bring that to the heart of the change and the change communication? And I think the communication also represented those three T's of trust really nicely. There was the transparency piece. They're very open about what the challenges were.

[00:21:12] Mel: What we need to change, how we're doing it, they were thoughtful, so they very much listened to their people. They did some big in depth research with their staff and with customers, and they shared back those findings and they were timely. They kept people up to date as they went through this journey as well, and it really built trust in the brand to the point now it far outstrips Target's revenue.

[00:21:35] Mel: Big time. And we're seeing a lot more Targets getting turned into Kmarts. And it really is, uh, quite the transformation story, but it's such a good example of what happens when you put people at the heart of the communication and really build trust around it.

[00:21:49] Prina: A hundred percent. It created such a buzz and no doubt, and as you've alluded to it, changed the organisational culture internally as well. What a three pronged, [00:22:00] amazing approach.

[00:22:01] Mel: And that doesn't mean it wasn't easy or wasn't expensive, because it was. But, they stuck to it. Yeah.

[00:22:07] Prina: They did it. They held, they stuck to their guns. Absolutely so. Now Mel. My podcast is called Ways to Change Your Workplace. And the magic question I ask everybody is if you had a magic wand, Ms. Mel Loy, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace? Get creative, get controversial.

[00:22:26] Mel: I would want everybody to do emotional intelligence training. Absolutely. Everybody from the ground up. Uh, and look, I think that was a turning point for me, my own career.

[00:22:38] Mel: I didn't know what emotional intelligence was, you know, in my early 20s, about 20 years ago, so it was a long time ago but, doing that training and learning more about it in my own time and, you know, through people like Adam Grants of the world, has really opened my eyes to how we work together. And how we can have those conversations that matter and not [00:23:00] taking things personally, but taking things with curiosity, you know, Oh, that's an unexpected reaction.

[00:23:05] Mel: I wonder why. That person has reacted that way, as opposed to, you know, going off your chops. So I think if everybody just as a matter of induction in your careers could do emotional intelligence training, that would change so much in terms of morale, in terms of communication, in terms of leadership, and then ultimately productivity in the bottom line.

[00:23:29] Prina: Yep. Beautiful. Thank you so much.

[00:23:32] Mel: That's all right. We'll just go change the world. Now, Prina, you and I single handedly. Ha ha ha ha hahaha.

[00:23:35] Mel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You just need two women in their active wear going for a walk with a coffee and problem solved.

[00:23:48] Prina: I love talking with you, Mel. Thank you.

[00:23:50] Mel: You too. Thank you so much for such a great conversation. I think people get so much out of what you shared around leadership as well. And I am definitely going to be referencing your [00:24:00] framework around the tell, sell, test, consult and co create. I think that's brilliant.

[00:24:05] Prina: It's huge. It's massive. Thank you. And by the way, the book. I have so many notes. I could have asked you a million more questions and I could talk to you for ages, but like, ooh, key points. Yes. Yes. It's very exciting for any reader as well. I really appreciate it. It really is.

[00:24:20] Mel: I appreciate you reading it. Thank you so much.

[00:24:22] Prina: My pleasure. Have a wonderful day.

[00:24:26] Mel: You too.

[00:24:27] Well, that was the second part of my chat with Prina Shah. And wasn't she an absolute delight? I was so excited to have her on the podcast, and I'm really excited to read her new book in its entirety, once it's out very soon. Speaking of books, I am even more than excited. I am elated to announce that my book Change Isn't Hard! Is now available for purchase.

[00:24:52] If you had to changecommsbook.au so that's changecommsbook.au - you'll find the links and all the [00:25:00] information. And I really hope that you find so much value in it. It's meant to be practical, easy to consume and easy to implement. And don't forget if you do purchase, there's a bunch of special deals on offer. And you get a pack of templates to use straight away as well. Okay.

[00:25:16] That's it for now. Thanks for tuning in for another week of less chatter, more matter. Keep doing amazing things and bye for now.