[00:00:00] Mel: Hi, and welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter, a podcast about all things communication without the waffle. I'm your host, Mel Loy, and in this show, I will give you short, punchy, practical communication tips and insights you can start using in your communication practices right away. I'm a former corporate communication executive who happily took a redundancy, started my own business and never looked back.

[00:00:27] Mel: These days I use my 20 plus years of experience to help guide organisations of all shapes and sizes in how to communicate more effectively. I'm wife to Michael, cat mum to Cookie, aunty to 12 nieces and nephews, a yoga teacher, and a group fitness fanatic. I promise these episodes will always be short, sharp, and helpful, so let's get amongst it.

[00:00:52] Mel: Hello and welcome to another week and another episode of Less Chatter, More Matter. It is wonderful to [00:01:00] have you along for the ride again. And I am so excited to bring you today's episode because one of the common mistakes I see in communication and whether that's comms prepared by a communications professional or somebody else is when people don't take the time to make complex ideas and data simple and easy for their audiences to understand. And when we don't do that, we miss the whole point of communication in the first place, which is getting our audience to understand and resonate with our message.

[00:01:31] Mel: Now, this is super important when you want people to change the way they think or feel about something, you want them to do something different, or when you want to pitch an idea or a business case. But it's also just as important in everyday life because great communication builds great relationships. So that's why I've spoken to an absolute expert on this topic: Kate Norris from Presentation Boss.

[00:01:55] Mel: As you'll hear, Kate has a background in data analytics, working mostly with [00:02:00] finance and safety data, and is now a data communications trainer, working with clients to produce effective data visualizations and succinct, story driven reports and presentations. She's a woman after my own heart. And as a trainer, she creates a full fledged fun, inclusive environment as she guides people through the data storytelling process, and she helps them move from data analyst to data leader by inspiring action through data driven business decisions.

[00:02:27] Mel: She lives in Brisbane with her two kids, one husband, and spends a lot of time upside down in a handstand. So we have a lot in common in terms of the handstands at least. Now I've learned heaps from Kate over the years and I'm sure you will too. In this episode we chat about some of the common mistakes people make when trying to share complex ideas or data, her top tips for simplifying and clarifying your message, a few of her tips of presenting like a boss, and when to use what graph.

[00:02:55] Mel: So if you're wondering when to use a pie graph and when to use a line graph, you're about to [00:03:00] find out. There is so much gold in this episode, so please sit back and enjoy. Here's Kate.

[00:03:07] Hi, Kate. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:03:10] Kate: Hello. Thank you so much for having me, Mel.

[00:03:12] Mel: It is a pleasure. I've seen and heard you speak before on all things, making the complex simple, which is why I really wanted you to be a guest on the podcast because you have so much gold to share.

[00:03:25] Mel: But before we get into that, can you tell us a little bit about what you do and how you came to, uh, build your expertise in that space?

[00:03:32] Kate: Sure. So I came into data visualisation at a time when it wasn't really valued. It was the early 2000s and while I was at university, I was working admin for a workplace health and safety department and basically all of our data was paper based.

[00:03:49] Kate: It was all just on forms and all the decisions in the safety department were based on gut feel from the guys in the field. And I started to put this data into [00:04:00] a database that I created.

[00:04:01] Kate: And the feeling at the time was like, oh, isn't she cute? Like with her little pictures! Um, because I had no way to say, no skill to articulate. Like I actually know what's going on... at a macro level in safety because I can see all of this stuff put together. So quite a few years after that, after I graduated and done some years in finance, I was brought back into the safety digitization project.

[00:04:27] Kate: And finally safety data was seen as something that could actually be useful. Um, and I was recognised as a safety data analyst, but I still really struggled to tell people what I was finding in the data. And we'd constantly be having these conversations about data quality, data cleanliness - because we always thought that that's what the problem was; that our data wasn't good enough. And my manager at the time she was excellent and she had this view that the data will never be perfect and spending all of our time [00:05:00] in that data quality space was futile and she said to me: The problem's not the data, it's how we're talking about it.

[00:05:07] Kate: So I think she basically just said, you're too much of a nerd, you need to be more, be more focused. So that was my first introduction to data communication and I started to really focus on the delivery, rather than just trying to solve the issue and trying to solve the problems by pushing more and more data out.

[00:05:26] Kate: Um, so now my company helps other people to do that as well, to focus on delivering their data in a way that other people understand.

[00:05:35] Mel: So you said my company, can you tell our audience a little bit about that?

[00:05:39] Kate: So my company is Presentation Boss, and we focus on data communication.

[00:05:45] Mel: Brilliant. So, in all the work that you've done, what are some of the biggest challenges people have with getting their point across when they're trying to communicate complex ideas and data?

[00:05:58] Kate: I believe it's the [00:06:00] problem that I kind of just mentioned, and that is thinking that everything's important, and trying to solve the miscommunications with more and more information rather than identifying and choosing what needs to be said and shown.

[00:06:19] Mel: Yeah. So over communicating to try and compensate. It's, it's almost like when people start talking louder because people can't understand, understand their accent. Yeah, I totally get that. Um, and I hear a lot of comms people in particular say things like, I'm just not a numbers person, but... we often have to communicate about numbers, so, or use them to illustrate a point, you know, to make a compelling case for why people should do something differently.

[00:06:47] Mel: What would you say to people who think they aren't numbers people?

[00:06:51] Kate: Well, generally we get the numbers from somewhere and something that I see in, you know, analysts and people who are self [00:07:00] confessed numbers people, I guess, um, is we spent ages looking at a graph, understanding it, working out what it says and keeping in mind that this is on top of the years of training and practice that we've had reading graphs.

[00:07:13] Kate: And then we show that graph to, you know, maybe a comms person who's someone who doesn't have that same background and understanding and training. And we expect them to understand it in a few seconds. So then that person who's had this graph put in front of them doesn't get it straight away. They feel silly and they create this narrative around themselves that they're not a numbers person.

[00:07:35] Mel: Yeah.

[00:07:36] Kate: So if you feel like that's you, chances are it is just a narrative. And what I would like to say, you know, if you're being handed numbers that you then have to on communicate is to keep pushing back to get a clear answer. And ask for things like... a clear one sentence summary of what the graph or the table or the numbers, whatever it is, is saying.[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Kate: Part of the role of working with numbers, if you're a data analyst or a numbers person, part of that role is to interpret them. But a comms person often doesn't push back enough, they just accept this confusing piece of communication. I have clients ring me and they say, my team are giving me these spreadsheets and I don't get it.

[00:08:22] Kate: I need you to train them to communicate their data better. So then I get with the team and they will literally say to me, no, no, this is good. Like my boss loves it. He gets it. We don't need to simplify it because he gets it. So I want to say, if you're not a numbers person, push back and push for that numbers person to help you understand.

[00:08:42] Mel: Yeah, I love that. And you're speaking there to something that, you know, we talk about a lot in our comms training and just in general is around the curse of knowledge, right? So the person who's giving you the numbers isn't deliberately trying to confuse you. They just have, they've got the curse of knowledge. They forget what it's like to [00:09:00] not know this stuff. Is that kind of what you're getting to?

[00:09:04] Kate: Absolutely, and they've stared at it for ages and they've looked at it and it clicks in their mind and they're like, Oh, that's so obvious. Like obviously everyone else is going to get this anyway.

[00:09:13] Mel: No, I have been in that position myself many times.

[00:09:17] Mel: Now you and Thomas, your business partner, you do a lot of work with people who also need to improve their presentation skills because it's not just one thing to go, okay, I understand the numbers now and I can simplify it. Um, but then you've got to try and present this in a way that's really compelling. So what are some of the common presentation mistakes that people should do and should try and avoid?

[00:09:39] Kate: The biggest one that I see is that people will start talking and they won't have a plan. And, you know, I see people who say, you know, I'm so nervous I can't speak in front of people. They will talk for literally 30 minutes with no concept of time.

[00:09:58] Kate: If you're giving presentations, [00:10:00] you need to be aware of time. I see that the biggest issue is just this complete lack of, um, concept of time, I guess is the best way to say it. You need to know how many words fit into a minute, because I guarantee it's less than most people think.

[00:10:16] Mel: How much is it?

[00:10:17] Kate: A hundred and twenty ish.

[00:10:18] Mel: Hey! There we go.

[00:10:20] Kate: I just, I say a hundred and twenty minutes as an average, that's what I aim for. And people think that they're just going to speak for a couple of minutes, and they end up speaking so much longer because they don't have a plan, and they haven't thought about their words.

[00:10:30] Mel: Mm hmm.

[00:10:31] Kate: Um, a few weeks ago, I don't know, three weeks ago ish, I was doing a lunch and learn and getting people to actually practice their three minute updates because the brief to me was that people were speaking for 15, 20 minutes in their three minutes. And one guy, um, said, Oh, look, I'm not going to give you the whole three minutes.

[00:10:49] Kate: I'll just give you the outline. Like I'll just give you my plan, what I would say in my three minutes. And he did that. And I was timing and I said, are you aware that the outline that you just [00:11:00] gave was four and a half minutes? Okay. So as soon as you fill in any detail, you're at 20 minutes and it floored him.

[00:11:07] Kate: Like he had no concept of the time that had passed cause he was just stuck in his detail. Um, and it's, it's why I'm a massive advocate for Toastmasters because that is the biggest issue that it tackles.

[00:11:21] Mel: Okay. Tell me a little bit more about Toastmasters. I mean, I know a little bit about it, but I'm not sure our listeners would.

[00:11:28] Kate: It's an organisation, it's a nonprofit organisation that is wholly developed uh, on getting people to be more comfortable and more succinct in their speaking. Um, I've been involved for 15 years and, you know, there's, there's more that you can do than just speaking. But the first couple of years, you just learn to stand up in front of a group and practice speaking.

[00:11:49] Kate: You're given a time limit with your speeches, which is, you know, generally five to seven minutes. And you have to learn to get a script together, and fit something [00:12:00] into that space of time. So there's those prepared speeches, and then there's also impromptu, um, opportunities as well. So you're given a topic and asked to speak on it for two minutes.

[00:12:11] Kate: So that gets over that fear. You know, we've all been asked in a meeting to speak on something with little to no notice, so it helps you to sort your thoughts and speak impromptu.

[00:12:22] Mel: Yeah, I love that. It sounds like a really good training ground. Yeah.

[00:12:25] Kate: Absolutely.

[00:12:26] Mel: And then speaking of speaking, uh, we often see not just in speaking, but in written words as well. People using a lot of complexity or like flowery jargon, academic language, because they think it gives them more credibility. But from the work you've done with your own clients and your own expertise, why is it so important to, to keep that language out of it and keep it simple?

[00:12:50] Kate: Simple feels easy, but it's really not.

[00:12:56] Kate: I have no idea where this thought process came [00:13:00] from that, like, big words are impressive, because I am yet to see anyone who is impressed by big words.

[00:13:06] Kate: It's got its place, but it's a very specific place. It doesn't need to be, um, you know, just in every piece of communication that we do. Um, I have a fairly common argument with my mum about how I parent. And that is that I don't correct my kids if they get words or like a sentence structure wrong. My view on the world is that I don't want them thinking about and focusing on being correct.

[00:13:33] Kate: I want them thinking about, have I connected and gotten across what I mean? I think that in general, we obsess over correctness and not enough on connection.

[00:13:45] Mel: Oh, I like that. Yeah. And you're absolutely right. Because the other thing about connection is no, it's part of knowing your audience, right? Because you can't tailor your communication in a way that resonates with your audience.

[00:13:58] Mel: If you're not tailoring with to their [00:14:00] audience and you're not connecting with them. So it's not a one size fits all approach ever. It doesn't work that way. Yeah, I agree.

[00:14:07] Kate: If you communicate simply. It's really impressive, and people only understand how impressive it actually is when they try to do it themselves.

[00:14:16] Mel: Yes, absolutely.

[00:14:18] Kate: And then you're like, oh, this is actually really difficult, and you start to get an understanding that, um, just because it sounds simple and easy, doesn't mean that it was simple and easy to get to that point.

[00:14:29] Mel: Yeah, I think there's that quote that's been attributed to a bunch of people, but it's, uh, you know, I didn't have time to write a shorter letter, so I wrote a long one instead.

[00:14:37] Mel: You know, that whole idea that it takes ages to, to really get down to the core message, the core idea and make it short and snappy and concise, but without losing the tone as well. I think that's, that's the, the toss up is how you make sure you still got this professional approachable tone without being blunt.

[00:14:56] Mel: Yeah. That, yeah. And how do you get down to that? Um, which leads me to my [00:15:00] next question. What are some of your top tips to help people get those complex ideas or data across in ways that actually resonate?

[00:15:09] Kate: Okay. The number one would be to, but this might be chronological a little more than anything. Um, spend time understanding what your audience needs to know and what their motivations are.

[00:15:24] Kate: Because what is important to you and what you find interesting is not necessarily important to them. So why are they asking the question? What are they going to do with that data, with that information? Because then you can start to work out what you need to give to them rather than giving them everything and hoping that they can pick out the best bits themselves. So definitely, um, know your audience and their motivations.

[00:15:50] Mel: Mm hmm.

[00:15:51] Kate: Number two. would be work out one message and put it in one sentence. Again, this is like the simplicity [00:16:00] thing. This is way harder than it seems to put a message into one sentence. And then I'll go one more. Again, we're going chronological with data, with graphs.

[00:16:11] Kate: I have a rule, one story, one graph. Don't have a graph that tries to tell multiple things. So we see layering and we see you know these clustered bars and stacked bars and all of this stuff in one graph and you've got to sit there, and you've got to have training which I was talking about earlier - you've got to have training to know how to read that. So if you're giving that to someone who is not as data literate as you which is most people if we're working in data, One story one graph simplify it until it's so obvious that you feel like it's patronising. It has to be so stupidly obvious.

[00:16:53] Mel: I love that. And actually that's a tip I picked up from you a few years ago, and that has stayed in my head for about three years now, as long as I've known you: one [00:17:00] story, one graph, and it's something I keep telling my clients now too. I'm like my friend, Kate, says and it works every time.

[00:17:06] Mel: 'cause I, I, I mean, I'm not a num, you know, numbers person, but I look at a waterfall graph and I have no idea how to read that thing. I've got no idea how water waterfall graph works. Uh, but just tell me a story with it. So what am I actually seeing as well? Like if you are going to use a graph, at least explain.

[00:17:24] Mel: So in this graph, you can see, like, put some context around it too, um, I think that's super important. So your three tips were understand and know your audience's motivations and therefore what they need to help them get the outcome you want. One message in one sentence, again, hard to do, but good practice.

[00:17:43] Mel: And one story, one graph. I think those are great tips.

[00:17:48] Mel: So I just want to ask about graphs because I know you've got some really good tips on this stuff. When's a good idea to use like a pie graph, for example, versus a bar graph or a cluster [00:18:00] graph? Like how do we know what type of graph to use to tell the right story?

[00:18:04] Kate: I have a rule with pie charts because we see way too many pie charts. Um, a pie chart should only be used when you want kind of a vibe.

[00:18:15] Mel: Right.

[00:18:16] Kate: So you don't need to know the exact numbers. If you just want to get a vibe of this one's bigger, this one's smaller, like that. So, I say it's like a hard and fast rule, but it's such an ethereal rule as well.

[00:18:30] Kate: You want a vibe.

[00:18:31] Mel: Yeah, you want a vibe.

[00:18:32] Kate: But it works. It does work. Um, and then generally I would say. A bar chart, a column graph, and a line graph are 95 percent the charts that you will use because they are understood by everyone. And again, it's that thing of like, it feels impressive to use a more complex graph.

[00:18:58] Mel: Like a waterfall graph? [00:19:00]

[00:19:00] Kate: Like a waterfall, yeah, it's just confusing. And waterfalls are such a classic example, like I literally have a statistics degree And it took me two years of being in finance to properly understand waterfall graphs, but I was creating them like left, right, and centre for years. And it took a few years to, to work out, like, no one had, I guess, the confidence to really say to me, I don't get it. So this is why I say to people, push back. If you don't get it, push back.

[00:19:32] Mel: Yeah, I like that.

[00:19:33] Kate: In hindsight, that was not the cleverest thing to use, but it was... expected.

[00:19:38] Mel: Yeah. Uh, and there was something else you shared on your LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago, which I loved. It was an image, I think it was from indeed. com and it was, uh, about the women's, the difference between men's wages and women's wages overall.

[00:19:52] Mel: I think it was like the 27 or 16 percent or something. And would you accept 16 percent less? And they had those images of like a burger with 16 [00:20:00] percent eaten out of it or an umbrella with, uh, 16 percent of the, the cover missing, like that, those kinds of graphics too, right? Like you don't just have to have graphs.

[00:20:10] Kate: Yeah. And that's exactly what I mean by a vibe.

[00:20:14] Mel: I love that. That was just such a great example. Cause it was like, you know, we don't need to use a chart for this. We can use other ways to, to show a story of numbers.

[00:20:23] Kate: Yeah, for sure. If you can get a little bit creative without being, again, you've got to be careful not to slip into... too creative, too complex, because you can get a little bit clever. So I'd say, you know, that's a fine line to walk.

[00:20:39] Mel: That's true. Yeah. And when we're pushing back a little bit on the subject matter experts who throw the numbers over at us, what are some of the, is there a key question or two that we should be asking to help them articulate what the story is?

[00:20:53] Kate: What is the one sentence summary of what you're trying to tell me?

[00:20:58] Mel: Love that.

[00:20:58] Kate: And it can only be [00:21:00] one, it can't be, you know, you can't cheat and give me one sentence that's four paragraphs long. It has to be one sentence. I generally say it needs to be able to fit on a post it note. And again, don't cheat, you don't use a fine point pen, it has to be, you know, a decent size pen, decent size writing, on a post it note, so if you want an idea of how long to make that sentence be, post it note.

[00:21:25] Mel: Okay. The other thing I love about the training that you and Thomas offer is, you know, it's about presentations, but you don't use a single PowerPoint slide, do you?

[00:21:33] Kate: No, even when we're teaching PowerPoint, it blows people's minds, people's minds when they get to the end of that segment and they're like, yeah, okay, I understand PowerPoints better.

[00:21:43] Kate: And Thomas will say, like, Did you notice I didn't use a PowerPoint? People are like, what? How do I not notice that?

[00:21:51] Mel: So what are you trying to show people through that process?

[00:21:56] Kate: It's really just understanding what is the purpose of a PowerPoint. [00:22:00] And it feels super obvious, but it's still a massive problem. Um, and it's what we call the bedtime story. I'm okay with you having plenty of notes in a PowerPoint, but put them where they belong in the notes section. Don't put them up on the screen and read them out. And it's what people mean when they say death by PowerPoint, so, you know, once you understand the purpose, and we look at the purpose and not just like, you know, use this template and you'll be fine.

[00:22:26] Kate: It's really thinking about why are you using a powerpoint? What do you have to show that you can't say? And it's a fairly brutal line that we use, but it's like, if the PowerPoint makes sense without the person, why is the person there?

[00:22:44] Mel: Yeah.

[00:22:44] Kate: And if the person makes sense without the PowerPoint, why is the PowerPoint there? They have to complement. You can't have this like double of everything.

[00:22:54] Mel: Mm. I love that.

[00:22:55] Kate: Purpose. Yeah. They make better PowerPoints.

[00:22:59] Mel: And that's one of the things I [00:23:00] say to my clients is the presentation is you, not what's on the screen. Like the screen is just there to either back up a point, help signpost, help people take you on a journey.

[00:23:09] Mel: If people are reading or squinting to try and read what's on the slides, because as you say, your notes are on there, they're not paying attention to you. They're trying to read what's on the slide. So What's the point? And I think, you know, to your point, um, there is, I often do two versions of a presentation.

[00:23:27] Mel: So one is, okay, this is the one that's going to be on the screen. It might just be an image with a couple of words, but the one that's going out to the participants later would have more detail in it as a reference point, you know, that's, but that's a different to your point. That's a different purpose. That's a different purpose for that PowerPoint.

[00:23:43] Kate: Yeah. And there is definitely this like crossover between what you send and what you present. And it's gotten, I don't know, merged in the last couple of years that you've got to be able to send out your slides that make sense without you.

[00:23:57] Mel: Yeah.

[00:23:58] Kate: And it's created a monster.[00:24:00]

[00:24:00] Mel: Yes, it has. Because then there's a lot of people who go, Oh, I'll just pick up the slides later and you know, it'll be fine. So Kate, there's three questions I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for these? Sure. Let's do it. What is one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communications?

[00:24:21] Kate: I listened to a podcast years ago with Tamsyn Webster and she talked about messaging and how you need to be so clear on your message and have everything driving towards that message. Kind of like what I've, what I've talked about, like I will parrot this forever now. Um, and it was such a light bulb moment for me because naturally, I'm a very scattered person, and I can tend to, um, kind of tend to ask the person who I'm talking to to make sense of what's coming out of my mouth, like in a presentation.

[00:24:54] Kate: But I finally understood the value of honing that message and getting that really clear [00:25:00] and making sure I speak to that message, and I've become much more succinct and way less word vomity.

[00:25:08] Mel: I love that. That's a great piece of communication. And, uh, I remember I was just reading a book, uh, Make It Stick by the Heath Brothers, Chip and Dan Heath.

[00:25:17] Mel: Uh, and you know, they were talking about getting to your core idea, like just what is the one core idea? I was like, yeah, you know, I often come up with like five key messages, but what is just the core idea? And that was, even as, you know, people like us who have been comms practitioners for so long.

[00:25:32] Mel: Sometimes you just need that reminder because we just get into these habits of, you know, especially working in corporate world. Um, second question. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:25:47] Kate: I think I've said this already, but I'm going to stick with it. Less trying to impress people and more trying to connect with people.

[00:25:55] Mel: Yes, love that. Last question, who do you turn to for [00:26:00] communication advice?

[00:26:02] Kate: My ultimate favourite communications person is Tamsyn Webster. She's in America, um, she, she looked after TED, like proper TED, um, the big, the big ones. And helped the TED speakers.

[00:26:17] Kate: Because, again, the famous ones, not just like TEDx - hone their messaging. And she's who I talked about listening to a podcast with her. We had her on our podcast as a guest a number of years ago, and she was, you know, they say don't meet your heroes, but she was wonderful. And sometimes I will just go back, you know, I'll search up a podcast that's got her and just get a reminder of messaging and how to communicate.

[00:26:42] Kate: I just think that she is the ultimate in communication.

[00:26:46] Mel: That's awesome. I will be looking her up. Well, okay. Thank you so much for your time today. Where can people find out more about you and the work that you do?

[00:26:56] Kate: Um, my website is [00:27:00] presentationboss. com. au and I'm mostly hanging around LinkedIn because that is where my clients live. So LinkedIn's my main social arena. Um, yeah, happy to connect.

[00:27:12] Mel: And we'll put the links in the show notes as well. Kate, thank you again for your time this morning and, uh, I look forward to using more of your pearls of wisdom with my own clients.

[00:27:22] Kate: Oh, thank you. Always lovely chatting to you.

[00:27:24]