[00:00:00] How many times have you avoided a conversation you really needed to have simply because you thought it was going to be tough? Answer honestly. The good part is you are not alone. So many people avoid hard conversations because of exactly that. They're not always easy. And we like to avoid confrontation and play nice to people because that's what helps us maintain the status quo.

[00:00:26] It makes sense. I mean, nobody wakes up in the morning wanting to go and upset somebody, but what are the trade offs if you avoid those conversations? Maybe it's a lack of accountability. Maybe it's poor behaviour that continues and escalates hurting others. Maybe it's others in your team wondering why a person is allowed to get away with poor performance.

[00:00:48] The good news is that hard conversations don't have to be hard. They can be constructive and they can be really valuable if you take the right approach. And that's what today's episode [00:01:00] is all about.

[00:01:02] Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Less Chatter, More Matter, the communication podcast. I'm your host, Mel Loy, and in today's episode, we're tackling one of the more challenging parts of communication skills, having constructive conversations that are actually valuable for everyone. Before we get into that though, a quick one from me, if you haven't already, would you become a reviewer of this podcast? A quick rating and review on your app of choice can make a big difference in how visible the show is.

[00:01:33] And it means I can keep doing this for longer. And if you've already left a rating or review a huge thanks to you as well. Okay. Back to the show. So today I'm going to take you through some of my top tips to have a constructive conversation. Now, obviously I can't get into all the detail on our short snappy show, but if you'd like to learn more, I am running a webinar on this topic in mid July.

[00:01:57] So I'll pop a link in the show notes to that if you're [00:02:00] interested. Now, when it comes to awkward conversations, there's plenty of reasons we need to have them. It could be because someone isn't performing to expectations, or maybe they've shown some really poor behaviours that need to be corrected.

[00:02:15] Sometimes you just need to provide feedback on a piece of work, but you are worried about how people might respond. The good news is all of that is perfectly normal to feel. The bad news is that most issues in a workplace, I think, are due to miscommunication and a lack of constructive communication. Now, miscommunication happens for many reasons, but primarily it's because we are not clear on what we mean and what we want.

[00:02:43] It also happens when we communicate from our own perspective, not from the recipient's perspective, and we don't tailor our communication to their needs. A lack of constructive conversation means that poor behaviour goes unchecked and other people in the team rightly get a little bit peeved that [00:03:00] behaviour is not being held accountable.

[00:03:02] So there's really good reasons to have these conversations and whether you are a leader talking to a team member or you're talking with a colleague or another stakeholder, at some point, you're probably going to have to have one of these conversations. There's no point avoiding it, that leads to worse outcomes.

[00:03:20] So we need to put on our big girl or a big boy pants and have the conversation. The great news is that with the right preparation, some structure, a few tools, we can build the confidence and not only make these conversations easier to have, but you're more likely to get the outcome you want to. So where to start?

[00:03:40] I'm going to take you through four of my top tips. And the first tip is know yourself. And what I mean by that is a couple of things. Number one, what is the energy that you are bringing into the conversation? So for example, are you going into it with a heightened energy because maybe you're anxious, maybe you're angry, [00:04:00] and that doesn't help anybody.

[00:04:02] So what can you do to bring a sense of what I call "firm calmness" to the room? And this helps from the very start to keep the conversation on track and not get caught up in the emotions of it. The second piece is what biases could you be bringing into the conversation? Don't think that you don't have any biases.

[00:04:22] If you are a human being, you have biases. It is as simple as that. None of us are immune. It comes from that part of the brain that is fast thinking. So where we're making snap decisions and judgments based on a life experiences and that primal need to protect ourselves. And when it comes to constructive conversations, there's quite a few biases that impact those conversations and that you should be aware of, but I'll just touch on three of the main ones.

[00:04:48] And the first one is. The recency bias. So basically what this means, the last thing or the most recent thing you've heard or experienced is the most memorable. So [00:05:00] if you are having a performance conversation, for example, with someone who has dropped the ball, make sure you're not just judging them on that most recent interaction or what you heard last about them.

[00:05:11] A good way to counter this bias is to ask whether there is any other evidence to the contrary. So maybe there's other great work that they've done recently. The second bias I'll touch on is the confirmation bias. And this one is basically how people get sucked into conspiracy theories. It's also related to the echo chamber effect that we see on social media, where after a while you only get shown the content that is relatable to what you've been posting yourself, what you've been looking at, and therefore reinforces your point of view.

[00:05:43] Confirmation bias basically means that once we decide on something, we look to find evidence that backs up that point of view, and we discount any ideas that might be contrary to that. So in a constructive conversation, this becomes an issue when you've made up your mind about a [00:06:00] person. or their behaviour and you're only assembling the facts and the evidence that reinforce that viewpoint.

[00:06:08] And you probably discount any others. So this one is a big bias to watch out for. I mean, even during the conversation, something the person says or the way they behave could also be taken as confirmation of your point of view. So we all do it. Just be really aware of it. And the third one is what we call the halo effect, as in the halo above your head.

[00:06:31] This is a bit of a, a fun one, but basically if you have a good opinion of someone already, and this is all research based, you're likely to take that through to everything else that person does. So Interestingly, it's even more superficial than that. People are more likely to think better of good looking people.

[00:06:50] So your overall impression of a person impacts how you think about that person's other traits. So for example, maybe you think, "Oh, she's really nice." And [00:07:00] therefore you may also think she's really smart, even if you have no evidence of that. So those three biases, again, recency bias, confirmation bias, and the halo effect, be really careful of those.

[00:07:13] Which brings us to tip number two, which is all about preparation. Like any other communication piece, a conversation requires preparation. And like all other communication, you need to have very clear outcomes. Those three outcomes that I bang on about all the time. What do you want people to know, feel and do as a result of this conversation?

[00:07:35] And once you're clear on those outcomes, you can work your way backwards and figure out what you need to do to reach that end point. Another piece to the preparation puzzle is picking the right time and place for the conversation. So the logistics. So for example, having these conversations online via Teams or Zoom is not usually a great idea.

[00:07:57] It's far less personal, obviously, but it [00:08:00] also doesn't allow you to see the other person's body language, which can provide some real clues as to how they're feeling. So if you can avoid using a virtual meeting, absolutely do. Also meeting in a glass walled room in the middle of the office, where all of the colleagues can see that person is a big no, no.

[00:08:18] And unfortunately I have actually seen that situation play out before. And one of the people in that conversation was clearly upset and I can only imagine having other people being able to see straight into that room did not help the situation.

[00:08:32] Similarly, surrounded by people in a coffee shop may not be great for some people, especially if that coffee shop is frequented by their colleagues, for example. So that's place. Now let's think about time. And from a time perspective, obviously last thing on a Friday, not a great idea. That person will just stew all weekend until they have the chance to talk to you again.

[00:08:53] So it's likely that over the weekend, they'll be again, succumbing to their own confirmation bias, talking to other people who validate their [00:09:00] feelings, get more anxious, more angry, it's not going to help. Uh, similarly, first thing on a Monday might mean that they've worked up their anxiety over the weekend and come into that conversation super heightened.

[00:09:11] So think really thoughtfully about where and when you will have that conversation. You want it to be a time and a space that provides the best conditions for the best conversation possible. Preparation also includes gathering the facts and making sure they are accurate. Hearsay is not accurate.

[00:09:29] So absolutely make sure that you've got a set of clear, accurate facts. And of course, check them for those biases we just talked about. And when preparing what you want to say, Like all other communication, a great structure will help a conversation. There's quite a few different structures out there you can use.

[00:09:47] Just Google feedback conversation structure or performance conversation structure. But one I really like is the AIR model. A I R. A stands for action, I stands for [00:10:00] impact and R stands for results. So action is about the action the person took or didn't take. For example, impact is about why that was a problem.

[00:10:10] So maybe somebody has been in late to their shifts every day for a week and the impact of that meant their colleagues were getting really busy, really frazzled early in the shifts and they were starting to get upset with that other colleague, which isn't great for the team. And the results part is about working together to come up with a way forward, which I'll touch on again shortly.

[00:10:31] The great part about a structure is that it helps you get your thoughts and evidence organised. It's much easier to remember what you want to say in the moment because you've just got this structure that you're following. And it's that logical flow of information that's not only useful for you, but it helps the other person follow your train of thought as well.

[00:10:50] And that's good because we want clarity. One last thing I'll say on structure, avoid the shit sandwich. You might also know this as the kiss, kick, [00:11:00] kiss structure. It's when we're worried about being perceived as mean, or we want to soften the blow of the actual feedback we want to deliver. So we top and tail the conversation with what the person is doing well or compliments or niceties.

[00:11:14] So for example, maybe the conversation goes, "Jack, you know, you've done some really great work on this project and the team loves you, but... "insert feedback here", and then you finish the conversation with, "But Jack, overall you're doing a great work and we're so lucky to have you." Does that sound familiar?

[00:11:31] Perhaps you've been on the receiving end of one of those conversations before, or maybe you've even done it yourself. Now here's the challenge with that. Number one, remember the recency bias we were talking about earlier. You're more likely to remember the last thing on a list. The primacy bias is kind of the flip side of that means that first impressions last.

[00:11:50] So when you top and tail the conversation with nice things, the thing you actually want to get across, that feedback message gets lost in the middle and is unlikely to be as memorable. [00:12:00] And that's not fair also on the person you're talking to. One of my favorite quotes from Brene Brown is clear is kind, unclear is unkind.

[00:12:09] And when you're softening the message with the shit sandwich, you're not being clear. And that doesn't help that person to walk away from that conversation with a really clear understanding of why you had the conversation and what they need to do differently. So that's tip number two preparation. Tip number three is to follow Mel's three golden rules of constructive conversations.

[00:12:30] Number one, say less. Number two, say it slower. Number three, listen more. So say less is about really choosing your words carefully. So some top tips here are things like talk about the role, not the person. This is great advice I got from a friend who was my leader many years ago, and it honestly does work a treat and it's helped me so much over the years.

[00:12:54] So talk about the role, not the person. For example, you could say in this role as a [00:13:00] team leader, we really need to see clear planning and KPIs. And right now we're not seeing that. So it becomes about people not meeting the requirements of their role, as opposed to say personal failings. So it helps with delivering that feedback, saying less than choosing your words carefully is also about emphasizing where you do agree.

[00:13:20] So for example, you could say Something like "we both want the same thing here," Uh, for our team to be thought of as high performers. Or maybe it's something like, "I can see we're both aligned on wanting this project to get over the line." When you emphasise where you agree, it kind of takes the wind out of the other person's sails, becomes a much more collaborative collegiate environment, and it helps that other person understand that you're there to help move something forward, to change something with them.

[00:13:47] It's not about them personally, necessarily. And the third tip within this particular category, the say less is. Say it as advice, not feedback. Language matters. [00:14:00] And when the word feedback is used, often it triggers this automatic negative reaction in people. It does depend on the context. Obviously, sometimes there's no way to get around the word.

[00:14:11] But if you can, try framing the conversation as advice. So for example, you could say, "can I give you some advice on how to work better with Mary-anne?" Rather than, "I want to give you some feedback on how you've been interacting with Mary-anne." Hopefully you can see the difference there, right? So the advice frames it much more about I'm here to help you, as opposed to I'm here to attack you.

[00:14:34] It also works in reverse. So usually when I'm seeking feedback on my training and workshops, for example, I often ask for one piece of advice on what I could do to make this training better rather than asking for feedback, because I often find when you ask people if they have any feedback, most of the time, they're just like, no, no, that was good.

[00:14:53] But if you ask for their advice, they've usually got something to say, and that's where the good stuff is. The [00:15:00] second golden rule was say it slower. So this is about using dynamic silence. Don't try and fill all the silence with your words. Dynamic silence is time for the other person to process what you've said, but it's also a trick I learned as a young journo student many moons ago that usually if you stay quiet or shut up for a bit, the other person will fill the silence and that's often where the gold is.

[00:15:24] And in these types of conversations, that could be things like feelings, facts, insights that you weren't aware of. So say less and by saying it less and saying it slower, you can also bring down the overall energy in the room to something that is much more, like I said earlier, firm calmness. We want to achieve that because there's that sense of it's not heightened.

[00:15:45] It's not anxious. It's not angry. It's calm. It's professional. We're moving forward. So saying things slower can really help to bring it down as opposed to being really high and heightened and fast and speaking really, really fast. And the third golden rule [00:16:00] was listen more. So this is where you can use techniques like paraphrasing.

[00:16:05] So that's where you repeat back what they've said in your own words, and that shows that you've listened, but it also helps you check your understanding. So you could say, "so it sounds like you want blah, blah, blah. Is that correct?" Again, that shows that you've listened, but it also helps to make sure you are on the same page.

[00:16:25] The other piece within listening is about curiousity, and it's about different perspectives of thinking about what else could be going on. So for example, a long time ago I was, uh, managing a team, there was two young people on that team and one day, seemingly out of the blue, one of them just had a go at the other one.

[00:16:42] Like she was yelling and all this sort of stuff. Totally not okay. So I pulled her aside. And what I did was look, I said, look, obviously that wasn't okay, but I asked her what else was going on because it was so out of character for her. And it turned out she had a lot of stuff going on in a personal life that she [00:17:00] hadn't shared, but it was clearly impacting her.

[00:17:02] So be aware there could be other things going on that you're not aware of. And sometimes you need to ask that question. "Look, that was really out of character for you. Is there something going on you want me to know about?" Also, it's about perspectives. Your perspective of the situation could be quite different from the perspective of the other person, even if the situation was exactly the same thing.

[00:17:23] And somewhere in the middle there where your perspectives overlap is something resembling the truth. So again, it's all about curiosity, keeping an open mind during the conversation. The fourth and final tip is to co create the action plan all the way forward from the conversation. If you just sit there and tell the other person what you want them to do differently, they learn nothing and the chance of them actually doing the thing you want them to do is pretty slim.

[00:17:50] Working together to co create the plan can help create that sense of ownership and responsibility with the other person. So to get there, we ask what are called [00:18:00] calibrating questions. So these are questions like, "how do you want to go forward from here?" Or "what would help you address this challenge?"

[00:18:07] Notice they're not questions that you can just answer yes or no to. They're open questions. And that brings me also to language. So being aware of the language that you use and using open language. So for example, rather than saying you should have done blah, blah, you could say, "what could you have done differently?"

[00:18:27] Okay. So the difference there really is just should and could. You should have done blah or what could you have done differently? And this means the person has a chance to reflect on what's happened. Think about how they can move forward. Okay. It's time for your episode recap. In this week's episode, we've covered off four top tips on how to approach and facilitate a constructive conversation.

[00:18:51] The four tips are number one. Number one, know yourself, be aware of the energy that you are bringing into the conversation and also be conscious [00:19:00] of and check your own biases. Number two, prepare, get clear on your no, feel and do objectives, assemble accurate facts, get a really good structure in place and think carefully about the time and the place for the conversation.

[00:19:15] Number three, follow the three golden rules. Say less, say it slower. And listen more. So that means being clear. Talk about the role, not the person. Allow space for them to think and speak. And slow down your speech to get that firm calmness that we talked about. And try paraphrasing to show that you've listened. And the fourth tip was co create the way forward.

[00:19:39] So co creation creates that space. Sense of ownership, which will improve your chances of the person actually doing something differently. And co creation means letting them come up with the ideas and you can just be there to sense check. And remember, stay curious. What else could be going on that could be impacting that person's behaviours?

[00:19:58] What is their perspective [00:20:00] on the situation? And what could you potentially learn from that? Curiosity is a great way to approach these conversations because it shows that you're opening. Um, open to listening, maybe to learning, but certainly to working together to solve the issues. Okay. That's all we have time for on today's episode.

[00:20:17] As I mentioned, I do have a webinar coming up on this topic. It's only 20 bucks per person, and I am limiting the ticket numbers, so make sure you jump onto that. The link is in the show notes. Also, if you haven't already. Consider becoming a subscriber of my fortnightly email. Every two weeks, I share a bunch of tips and tricks, latest news from the comms world, resources, and a list of upcoming events.

[00:20:39] It's not spammy. I just pack it full of value. And as always, this is The People Show. So if you have ideas for topics you'd like me to cover on the podcast, please get in touch. I'll be back here, same bat time, same bat channel, next week with a fresh new episode of Less Chatter, More Matter. In the meantime, keep doing amazing things and bye for [00:21:00] now.