[00:00:00] Mel: In 2022 Australia was gearing up for a federal election. For the first time in many years, it looks like a change of government was possible, but of course, nothing is for certain until the votes are counted. The Australian labor party or the ALP was in opposition at the time. And if they were going to have any chance of winning. There were several key audiences.

[00:00:20] Mel: They needed to win over among them women, millennials, and gen Z. The usual tactics of doorstop interviews, door knocking in the electorate and buying advertising spots on digital media, just wasn't going to cut it this time. And this is where a perhaps unlikely platform came into play - TikTok. At last count tikTok had over 1 billion active users, representing almost a quarter of all internet users. And the app has been downloaded more than 4.1 billion times. And of all those users, the largest proportion, at least in the USA are 10 to 19 years old with almost half of all users under 30. [00:01:00] So how did a stodgy political party make this modern day social video platform work for them? That's what today's episode of Less Chatter, More Matter, is all about.

[00:01:14] Mel: Hi folks. And welcome to another episode of Less Chatter, More Matter. It's a delight to have you here tuning into this episode on all things, political communication and social media. And today we're going to hear from an actual expert on the subject, Dr. Susan Grantham. Full disclosure, Susan and I are friends from way back.

[00:01:35] Mel: We first met when we both worked for the Queensland police media. Almost 20 years ago, which is showing our age. But these days, Susan is an early career researcher specialising in the intersection of trending social media, notably TikTok, and its applications within organisational contexts. Her work delves into the evolving landscape of TikTok use by political figures and parties. Uh, investigating the nuances of [00:02:00] political authenticity in audience engagement. She's also exploring the emerging need for official disaster messaging on the platform during weather events. With over 15 years of experience in strategic communications, crisis management and social media engagement within the Queensland government. Susan brings a wealth of practical experience to her scholarly pursuits. Her research extends beyond tick-tock to encompass reputation management, focusing on the implications of cutting edge, technological advancements, like AI. Susan's multidisciplinary approach, not only sheds light on the transformative potential of TikTok, but also offers valuable insights into the broader implications of digital communication strategies in contemporary society. I've included a link in the show notes to Susan's paper.

[00:02:45] Mel: And thankfully, because she's a strategic communicator, it is not written in an academic jargon it's in plain English. So definitely go check it out. It's an interesting read. We had a great chat about her research, but also about the role of TikTok [00:03:00] and social media and communications, the risks involved and why the platform is so powerful. So without further ado here's Susan.

[00:03:09] Mel: Hi Susan, and welcome to the show.

[00:03:12] Susan: Hi Mel, thanks for having me.

[00:03:13] Mel: So, uh, I'm excited to have you on here because I noticed on LinkedIn a little while ago, you posted a article that you've written or a paper that you've written about TikTok and how the Australian Labor Party used it during the 2022 federal election. So I really want to delve into that, but first, can you tell us a little bit about you, what you do and how you came to develop your expertise in this space?

[00:03:38] Susan: Right, so I, um, I'm a scholar at Griffith University. I'm a lecturer in strategic communications, uh, but prior to moving across to, um, the world of lecturing, uh, I worked in the Queensland government for 16 years.

[00:03:53] Susan: So I worked in the Queensland Police Service and also the Department of Justice and Attorney General. Um, and during my career [00:04:00] in the government, uh, we saw big significant changes in the use of social media and the uptake of social media in this. corporate space. Um, and I did my doctoral studies during that time up specifically while I was at police and I explored the role of social media in this government corporate space as my doctorate thesis.

[00:04:22] Susan: So as I progressed across to, um, to academia, I obviously had this strong interest in, in social media and the way that social media can be a really strong, powerful tool for organisations. Um, and, of course, the most prevalent social media platform at the moment is TikTok. So that's where I've been focusing most of my efforts is the way that organisations in particular can use TikTok effectively and the reasoning why they need to be there.

[00:04:49] Susan: So that's where I've been focusing most of my efforts is the way that organisations in particular can use TikTok effectively and the reasoning why they need to be there. TikTok is, is where most people get their information. So it's very important for organisations to be there. During this [00:05:00] time, I of course, noticed that a lot of politicians and political parties have started using TikTok to get their messages across.

[00:05:06] Susan: So that's where I'm focusing most of my efforts at the moment.

[00:05:09] Mel: Yeah. So in terms of using TikTok as a campaigning tool, what were some of the key findings that you had from your research?

[00:05:16] Susan: Right. So that specific research that I did that's been recently published, um, the key findings that I found was the use of humor.

[00:05:24] Susan: So, uh, you know, negative campaigning is a really traditional campaigning tool. So most political party parties will negatively campaign against the opposing party. That's, that's pretty standard. It's been happening for a very long time. But what was quite unique about what they did on TikTok was the way they used the platform for what it was designed for, you know, they, they used all of the affordances that were available to them.

[00:05:49] Susan: They use trending sounds, they use trending, um, uh, memes, they used, um, you know, cultural, popular cultural references. [00:06:00] Uh, and, and what I specifically found was the way that they were targeting the two generations that mostly use TikTok. So we, of course, see Generation Z. Um, and also, um, millennials on TikTok.

[00:06:12] Susan: So there was quite an interesting focus in the way that they were tapping into that Gen Z, um, trending sounds in particular, the Dua Lipa stuff, but then also focusing on things like the Simpsons. You know, the stuff that speaks more to our generation. Um, so the way that they use these popular cultural trends to, to do this negative campaigning was really unique.

[00:06:34] Mel: Hmm. It's interesting. Um, look, I'm not a TikToker. I have a TikTok account and mostly I watch cat videos and wombat videos and comedians. So for those of us who aren't as in tune with TikTok, can you tell us a little bit more what you mean by trending sounds and those sorts of tools?

[00:06:51] Susan: Yeah, of course. So TikTok has, um, uh, there's this concept that was developed by a scholar over in WA, uh, called, uh, [00:07:00] her name is Crystal Aberdon, but she, she uses this term of visibility labor. So this is the work that we do to be seen. Um, and of course that, that applies to every social media platform, but on TikTok, this is understanding what's currently trending.

[00:07:15] Susan: So what's coming up on your for you page? What is coming up on the for you page of people you were trying to target? So that's that's how we tap into the trends. We look at what's currently trending from a sounds perspective, so we have trending sounds on on TikTok. We also have things like stickers.

[00:07:34] Susan: We have, um, stitches and duets and the way that we can take someone else's content and turn it into our own. I mean, it's, it's this platform that's designed for sharing. It's a platform designed for creativity. So, um, we need to understand if we're going to use it effectively, we need to understand what is trending on the platform so that we can then tap into what they are doing.

[00:07:56] Susan: And the other thing that we've got to remember is that what's trending [00:08:00] today is not going to be trending tomorrow. So we've, we've got to look at exactly what's going to happen right now, and we certainly see this at Griffith. Our Griffith account is quite a unique account, um, and you know, some things that get developed, we have to throw in the bin because by the time we're ready to actually post it. The trend's gone, so it's, it's such a fast paced environment.

[00:08:23] Mel: Is it a bit cringe seeing politics on TikTok?

[00:08:27] Susan: It can be, and it's funny you say that because one of the, one of the key, um, codes that I used in, uh, analysing the data was when we, when we looked at humor in particular, uh, one of the key codes that we focused on was cringe.

[00:08:41] Susan: Um, this whole concept of cringe humor, um, and it, it was so prevalent, particularly. Uh, when they were, again, it's in the negative campaigning and what the Labor Party used. And I've got some other examples of what people are more recently doing, which is also quite cringe. Um, but the [00:09:00] way the Labor Party was using cringe was to make people feel uncomfortable watching Scott Morrison.

[00:09:09] Susan: So obviously it was very negative against Scott Morrison, and they highlighted some of the things that he had done. And they, they really made you feel uncomfortable watching these TikToks, which of course we all know as human beings, we're so heavily attracted to things that make us feel uncomfortable.

[00:09:25] Susan: So we can't help but keep watching. And that's where the success came from is, is putting people in these situations where they couldn't stop watching, um, what they were doing. And of course, when, when we look at the more recent stuff, so I'm, I'm progressing away from the party politics and looking a little bit more at our political leaders here in Queensland as we're leading into an election.

[00:09:47] Susan: Um, and of course, some of the things that they're doing, uh, some people might consider to be quite cringe, um, because we're seeing these politicians trying to create a persona for themselves. We're seeing them trying to create authenticity, [00:10:00] um, and whether it's working or it's not working, we're not quite sure yet.

[00:10:03] Mel: So on that, how, yeah, do you have a... I guess a gut feel on how impactful that TikTok strategy was for the ALP in the last election?

[00:10:15] Susan: Yeah, it's, it's a tough one. Um, in the world of scholarship, you would have to do a very large audience survey, um, to see how many people were actually noticing, uh you know, the, the actual TikToks going out and how much that influenced the way that they voted.

[00:10:32] Susan: Um, but I certainly saw a lot of commentary on the TikToks that suggested that people were, uh, getting more heavily involved in this narrative, um, which ultimately is what you're trying to do on TikTok. On TikTok or on any social media in this political space is trying to generate discussion, trying to generate conversations about things that then will ultimately influence votes.

[00:10:59] Susan: So while I don't [00:11:00] have very specific data that suggests that it was hugely successful, it's certainly, um, the numbers and the way that the content was being viewed and engaged certainly suggest that it was hugely successful. And I think a good test of that will be what happens with the UK federal elections at the moment as well. Uhm, because they're using this party politics focused, um, use of TikTok as a part of their campaigning.

[00:11:28] Mel: I wonder too, because I did have a skim through the ALP's account before we had this chat. And as a communicator, somebody who's worked in government alongside you, yeah, the... my risk radar is just going off and how you actually get that stuff over the line, how you get your stakeholders comfortable with going in that direction. I mean, do you have any insights into that?

[00:11:52] Susan: Yeah, it's, it's a really tricky one. Um, for the simple reason that it's a risk to use it, and it's also a [00:12:00] huge risk not to use it. Um, because that's where the bulk of the audience is these days. And when you look outside of the work that I'm doing and look at the work that other TikTok scholars are doing, they have quite clearly proven that people are using or engaging in TikTok to get their news; to get their information, to get knowledge of what's happening worldwide. So, if that's where people are going to get information, then organisations have to be there to make sure that the right information is being displayed as well. So, there's risks both ways. Obviously, the risk with using it in a political space, campaigning is one thing.

[00:12:37] Susan: Campaigning is, is very much about that negative campaigning and, swaying votes and getting people interested in the party and what they stand for, or more importantly, getting people disinterested in the opposition. But when it comes to politics, it does get very tricky. And this is something that I've noticed in my more [00:13:00] recent, um, uh, work where I'm looking at the, the political leaders in Queensland.

[00:13:04] Susan: So I'm looking at Miles and Christopher Lee, most of all, but also I have some data from Palaszczuk as well.

[00:13:10] Mel: And for our listeners, those are Queensland political leaders.

[00:13:13] Susan: Yeah, so our current Queensland leaders, so Palaszczuk being the former premier who resigned at the end of last year, Miles being the current premier who took over from her and Christopher being the opposition leader.

[00:13:27] Susan: Um, but what I have found is that, uh, Palaszczuk used to use a lot of trends to get her information across. So she would talk about, party politics or, or, um, uh, policies, changes in policies, but use trends to portray that message. And one of the key things that I found in that analysis is that the, the core of the message can get lost.

[00:13:50] Susan: It's very difficult to actually explain a full policy change in a one minute TikTok video, particularly when your audience may only [00:14:00] listen or watch the first 10 seconds. So there is this very strong possibility that, um, messages can get lost in amongst it. So we've got to be very careful that when we are, in fact, using it organisationally, that we are being very clear in what we're trying to say and treating it.

[00:14:18] Susan: It's a little bit like, um, if I put it into the practical terms, you know, working in the Department of Justice, obviously it's a, uh, you know, a, um, legal space where everything can be said in 25 pages, but it was my job and my team's job to get that said in two sentences. It's the same kind of concept. I've got to take something very, very big and turn it into something very, very small. So being very clear in what you're trying to portray and what it means, and then using those tools like linking, um, and tagging to make sure that your audience gets the information that they might need.

[00:14:53] Mel: Yeah, so it's really that core comms skill of being able to simplify the complex really, that's what it comes down to.

[00:14:59] Susan: Absolutely. [00:15:00] Yeah. And doing it in a visual way that gets people engaged.

[00:15:03] Mel: So is TikTok a channel more government organisations should be exploring? And if so, why? Like, apart from audience, why, what are the other benefits of it?

[00:15:13] Susan: Yeah. Okay. So, um, I had this exact conversation recently, uh, with Parliament. Um, I was invited to go and speak to the Queensland Parliament about this. And one of the core things that we talked about there was the fact that there is so much misinformation out there. There's so much wrong information out there. And how do we, how do we protect people from that? And my simple answer to that, coming from a practical background, but also the scholarship background, is that we have to be there. You know, we can't just stop people from spreading misinformation.

[00:15:46] Susan: We don't have that kind of control. But what we do have control over is making sure that the correct information is in fact on those platforms. So branding it correctly, making sure that we are seen as the genuine, um, uh, [00:16:00] authority on a particular topic. Um, that's, that's where it becomes extremely important.

[00:16:06] Mel: Okay. So we touched a little bit on the risk part, but obviously political messaging, it comes fraught with, you know, the trolls love it. There are people who are just never going to like what you put out there because of your ideology. What are some of the other reputational risks with TikTok or using it in that context, not even just in politics, but organisationally as well?

[00:16:29] Susan: Yeah. Um, yeah. It's again, it comes back to where the risk truly is. Is the risk in using it or is the risk in not using it? And it's what's going to be stronger reputationally. I don't think you can really go wrong by being there because people either engage or they don't engage as an individual. Um, and don't get me wrong, I've had my fair share of negative commentary on platforms like TikTok, where, um, you know, I might post something [00:17:00] about my, my work, or I might post something about something that I'm working on, or I'm doing, or something I'm researching, and people will say negative things.

[00:17:08] Susan: That's, that's fact. So that, that becomes something that you need to be able to deal with yourself. As an organisation, though, that kind of negative comments, um, that comes part of the, you know, the work that we do. Obviously, we need to be very conscious of moderating and making sure that no legal issues or ethical issues are being breached.

[00:17:30] Susan: But ultimately, um, again it comes down to whether the risk is truly us using it and that potential, um, commentary that can come out of it, or if it's not using it and finding that we're not actually being a part of the conversation that's being had.

[00:17:47] Mel: That's yeah. And I think you're absolutely right. And something that it can take a lot of organisations quite a bit of convincing to get over that fear as well, I think.

[00:17:57] Mel: And also it is clearly resource intensive as [00:18:00] well to run any communication channel, let alone something like TikTok where you've got to produce such visual content so regularly as well. Um, but Hey, that's what they're paid to do. So...

[00:18:12] Susan: yeah, exactly. And look, it doesn't have to be quite as, um, impressive as what the ALP did, or even what the, you know, the UK Labor Party is doing right now.

[00:18:24] Susan: If you look at what some individuals do on these sorts of platforms, it can be very simple. We don't have to do anything to crazy or out there. We don't have to dance. We don't have to sing. We can just be there talking. And some of those sorts of accounts get really high following. I've certainly noticed that particularly on TikTok, education is, is, uh, something that people are engaging with.

[00:18:48] Susan: Um, uh, accounts that, that look at how we can better do things seem to have really high viewership, which, you know, suggests to me that people are engaging on with that kind of content on [00:19:00] this type of platform. So it doesn't have to be the dancey trendy stuff. It can be as simple as like what we're doing right now, sitting and talking.

[00:19:08] Mel: Yeah. Right. And that kind of, uh, In my mind leads me to YouTube because that's where I go to learn something. You know, if I want to know how to cook something, rarely do I want to do that. But if I do, it's usually if I need to fix something that I've broken, YouTube is the place I go for that. Um, do you think there's... tikTok maybe taking over a bit of that space?

[00:19:31] Susan: Yeah, absolutely. Yep, TikTok and, well, Instagram Reels is where I now go for recipes, um, but TikTok is definitely where the, the younger audience is now going for this kind of stuff. Um, and there are, there are accounts out there, um, similar to the YouTube accounts, you know, how to fix, uh, one bizarre thing that I have noticed on there is, uh, leather, leather repair.

[00:19:55] Susan: There's a whole, there's a whole series of videos on TikTok about [00:20:00] how to repair leather.

[00:20:00] Mel: Who knew?

[00:20:01] Mel: Cool.

[00:20:05] Susan: And now that I've said that out loud, the algorithm's probably going to pick it up and send it to me again.

[00:20:09] Mel: Big brother is watching. Actually, and that brings me to my, my last question on your work is, in your research, have you come across any AI related issues with, particularly with political advertising on TikTok?

[00:20:22] Mel: And if so, what have you seen?

[00:20:24] Susan: Yeah, look, I'm certainly not with my work at the moment. We don't have a lot of this happening in the Australian space, but I have, like, I'm starting, I'm starting a new project where I'm looking at the UK TikTok use, the party use over there. And of course, there's been some pretty significant issues there with, you know, deep fakes from an advertising perspective.

[00:20:46] Susan: But this comes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, is it... is it better to allow those - because you can't control that, that's going to happen. But the way we can control it is by [00:21:00] ensuring that our actual message is on there. So as a political leader, if we look at, um, the political leaders, the fact that a political leader can be, uh, manipulated in a deepfake to say certain things, but if they've got their own account, And they are saying things in a very specific way, and you know that that's not their stance.

[00:21:20] Susan: Provided they're visible on that platform, the deepfake suddenly becomes obviously misinformation. Whereas if they're not on the platform, the deepfake can be seen as truth.

[00:21:32] Mel: So it seems like there's a really big need there for education and probably more among some members or some cohorts of society than others, I would imagine, too, which is.

[00:21:42] Mel: It's a huge risk to, to all of us.

[00:21:45] Susan: Yeah.

[00:21:47] Mel: Well, Susan, that was fascinating. Uh, but what else is fascinating is these three questions I'm about to ask you, which I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those?

[00:21:57] Susan: I think so.

[00:21:57] Mel: She's got it. Everybody. She's [00:22:00] okay. Okay. What's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:22:08] Susan: Um, okay, so maybe one of the best lessons that I've learnt is, is the simplification of messaging. Uh, how important it is to get something very significant across in the shortest amount of words possible. Uh, which is a very, very hard skill to learn and even harder to convince people above you. That is actually the right thing to say.

[00:22:34] Susan: Um, so that's probably one of the biggest lessons that I've learned. And it certainly has changed the way that I communicate, um, both in my professional setting, but then now also in my academic setting. So, you know, I've, I've certainly changed the way, when I first started working in the academic space, my writing style was, you know, trying to be academic.

[00:22:54] Susan: And then I had this moment of the way I communicated as a professional communicator was [00:23:00] to simplify language. So why am I making it difficult in the academic space? So now I'm working really hard to change my style of writing, which is probably something you can see in the ALP paper is just the simplification of language to make it more accessible.

[00:23:13] Mel: I did notice that because, um, I'm doing some postgrad study at the moment. And so reading a lot of journal articles and honestly, I hate academic writing. I really do. But yours is like, Oh, this is, I can read this. I can understand this. This is, you know, and I'm not turned off by it, which is great. So yeah.

[00:23:29] Mel: And I imagine being able to simplify the complex comes in handy with your children as well. So

[00:23:33] Susan: Correct. Even when I do, they don't listen.

[00:23:37] Mel: Now, what's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:23:44] Susan: Oh, okay. Um, what I want them to do more of is use platforms that are available.

[00:23:55] Susan: I want, um, professional organisations more [00:24:00] available on, um, every platform. What I want them to do less of when communicating across these platforms is the carbon copy. Every platform is designed for something different. So I know that that creates a lot more work for us as professional communicators, but, um, What is going to work on Facebook is not going to work on Instagram, and it's not going to work on YouTube, and it's not going to work on TikTok, so you need to be able to take the same message and turn it into multiple, um, outputs, which I'm sure most people listening to this probably don't do this, but I certainly still see it quite a bit in some government departments where, you know, a lot of effort goes into creating a particular piece of content, so they just place it across every, you know, every um, platform, which is, yeah, I wish, I wish there was a lot less of that.

[00:24:49] Mel: Yeah, I totally agree. And last question, who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:24:56] Susan: You're going to hate this Mel, but it is you. Um, simply [00:25:00] because we worked well together when we did work together all those years ago.

[00:25:04] Susan: When, whenever I am trying to create content, because I've now been technically out of the industry for four years, you know, so a lot has changed in those amounts of time.

[00:25:14] Susan: So, um. You when when you work in this kind of space, you need to find that person who is so actively engaged in the industry. Um, and the changes in the industry so that you've got someone to turn to, to make sure that you're on top of what you're actually trying to talk about. Um, so, yeah, it's definitely you, Mel.

[00:25:33] Mel: Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you. Well, amazing chat. Thank you so much. We'll pop the link for your paper in the show notes, but where can people find out more about you and connect with you?

[00:25:44] Susan: You can, you can find all of my details on the Griffith University experts page.

[00:25:48] Susan: So you just go to the experts page, search for my name and, um, all of my email and contact details are in there.

[00:25:53] Mel: Fantastic. And Susan also shares some great stuff on LinkedIn as well. So worth a follow there just to see some of the, [00:26:00] uh, things you're sharing from the academic world as well, because, uh, yeah, it's so easy, I find to get bogged down in our day to day of Stratcomms, just doing the same thing and now and just focusing on the work we're doing and not taking the time to kind of sit back and see what else is going on in the world around us and what kind of research is happening. So,

[00:26:17] Susan: Oh, and there's a lot. Yeah.

[00:26:19] Mel: Oh, yes. And TikTok is just one part of it all, which is an incredibly important part, as we've heard. Well, thank you so much, Susan, for your time today.

[00:26:27] Susan: Thank you. Thanks for having me.