[00:00:00] Mel: Imagine this. You work for a team that not only works in a hybrid environment, but you're also spread across the world. Maybe that sounds pretty familiar. The opportunities to get together in person are pretty limited, but you found a way to build a real connection. The calendar reminder for your next team meeting pings on your screen, so you grab your VR headset and pop it on. You then join your workmates, walking around a virtual meeting room, or maybe in a private garden, or even sitting on couches. You're able to lift up your virtual coffee cup. They're able to see your eyes blinking and moving, your body language and even virtually shake your hand. This kind of reality, though virtual, is not that far away. In fact it's here already. And it's the new frontier for communication.

[00:00:52] Mel: Hello, and welcome to today's episode of Less Chatter, More Matter - the communication podcast. I'm your host, Mel Loy. [00:01:00] Today's episode is one that every communicator worth their salt should pay attention to because it's all about the rapidly changing landscape of communications.

[00:01:09] Mel: And that involves virtual reality. Between virtual reality or VR and AI, our communication worlds are going to change dramatically. And in the not too distant future. So it's worth getting yourself up to speed on what's here already. What's coming and how you can use it. Which is why on today's episode, I'm interviewing Ben Breitenstein from Composit design. Ben is a self-professed virtual reality evangelist.

[00:01:38] Mel: Having grown up with an unhealthy obsession for both Lego and MacGyver. Ben was destined for a career at rooted in both problem solving and making things. Over the last decade, Ben has been swept up in the third wave of virtual reality and is currently exploring innovative ways to exploit the technology and telling anyone who will listen. Drawing on his [00:02:00] experience designing real world products for people, his approach mixes learnings from the psychology of user centered design and behavioral economics. Ben is a diligent devotee of the evolving practice of building compelling virtual reality experiences, that make looking at a 2d screen feel like reading Latin off a stone tablet. And as you'll hear from our chat, there are so many use cases for VR, both for communicators and in other professions. And the technology is just getting smarter every day. Personally after chatting with Ben, I'm already inspired about ways I could be incorporating VR into my comms and my training for my clients.

[00:02:38] Mel: And I reckon you will be too. So without further ado, here's Ben. .

[00:02:43] Mel: Hi, Ben. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:45] Ben: Thank you so much for having me. Sounds like fun.

[00:02:47] Mel: Yeah. Well, uh, speaking of fun, that's, we're going to talk about some fun stuff today, virtual reality. But before we get to that, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do and how you came to develop your expertise in that [00:03:00] spectrum?

[00:03:00] Ben: Yeah, sure. Okay. So these days, I'm basically developing virtual reality experiences full time, which is super fun.

[00:03:09] Ben: Um, doing all sorts of simulations and, um, so good, good for training as well as some sales experiences where people can put a headset on and play with products and have a look at them. But my background is originally in industrial design. So I always wanted to design products. You know, as a kid you draw cars and things like that growing up.

[00:03:32] Ben: So I studied industrial design and I spent the better part of a decade, um, designing furniture and lighting. And doing some pretty crazy, like, projects. artistic lighting installations for pubs and clubs and that sort of thing. A local Brisbane manufacturer called Luxbox was where I was the designer.

[00:03:52] Ben: That's kind of where I cut my teeth in that space. And then in 2016 or so, a friend of mine got one of the early consumer VR [00:04:00] headsets. I was pretty dismissive of it at first. I didn't really know what he was on about. But after spending 20 or 30 minutes in there and doing some pretty fun experiences, I was just hooked.

[00:04:11] Ben: I was like, dude, I've never experienced anything like this. And it's, it's the, one of those feelings that I've sort of spent the rest of my life chasing. And so, because I sort of had that background in 3D design, um, from the industrial design, Trade, if you like. Uh, it was a pretty easy transition then for me to bring that into the virtual space.

[00:04:33] Ben: Um, I just had to team up with programmers and that sort of thing. Uh, people with the right skills to be able to bring those worlds to life, basically, and that's what I'm doing.

[00:04:42] Mel: That's awesome. And isn't it interesting how our careers change and evolve as we go? You know, something you start out doing; You never think you end up where you end up half the time.

[00:04:51] Mel: Um, I bet there's a lot of comms people who are in the same boat. Like, I start off doing journalism thinking, I'm totally going to travel the world and be a foreign [00:05:00] correspondent. Yeah.

[00:05:02] Ben: No. It's never too late, right?

[00:05:04] Mel: No, that ship has definitely sailed. So let's start with the basics. What is virtual reality?

[00:05:11] Ben: Yeah, sure. So you've probably heard terms like augmented reality, virtual reality, mixed reality, all that sort of stuff. So virtual reality specifically refers to when you put a headset on and you cannot see the outside world. So we call these fully synthetic environments. So you are transported to an imaginary world and really a virtual world can be anything the imagination can conjure.

[00:05:38] Ben: And that's kind of what we do. We build these virtual worlds. Whereas augmented reality is where you are, you're looking at the real world, whether it's with your eyes or through a screen, and you're augmenting that with extra layers of information. So that's the big distinction between the two. So a lot of the modern headsets can do both, because they have cameras, so you can see the world around you, you can overlay extra [00:06:00] information.

[00:06:00] Ben: But you can turn that pass through off, that's what it's called, pass through, when you can pass through and see the world in front of you. Um, good for not running into things and safety and that sort of jazz. But yeah, you can turn that off and enter a fully synthetic environment. And that's what VR is.

[00:06:15] Ben: And the sort of catch all term when you bundle all this stuff together is XR, which is kind of shorthand for extended reality or mixed reality.

[00:06:24] Mel: Right. Okay. So what are some of the ways that comms people could use as a tool, or that you've seen used as a tool for communication?

[00:06:32] Ben: Yeah, sure. Um, so I'll give you a couple of specific examples, I suppose, and then I'll try and give you a way to approach all this that will be a bit broader but give you the right idea about how to think about VR and AR.

[00:06:47] Ben: So, in terms of specific examples, um, they've, it's been really popular for things like trade shows and location based activations. For instance, one of the things I worked on [00:07:00] last year was for the Department of Resources, they had a stall at the Ekka. And we had an interactive experience where we talked about, um, the future of minerals and people could come along and put on a headset and it would basically take them on a tour around the state showing them where this stuff comes from and what it looks like when it comes out of the ground.

[00:07:19] Ben: So, yeah, really leveraging that ability to, to take people anywhere.

[00:07:26]

[00:07:26] Ben: That's, I guess, a pretty simple, um, use of it. But if we look at this a bit more broadly, um, think about. The nature of comms and this sort of work before computers really came along and what a leap that was and then we got pretty used to doing things on computers and then smartphones came along and shook it all up again.

[00:07:50] Ben: And so this really VR and that sort of tech, XR tech, really represents the next big jump into how we [00:08:00] deal with information. So that's, that's kind of the thing I would like to impart to people is, is start to think about what is your work going to look like when, I guess we've got to talk about AI, we can't not mention that because that's going to come into it, but everything's going to be filtered through a bot that, that helps you as your digital assistant.

[00:08:19] Ben: So when you pair that up with, um, spatial computing interfaces, When everyone's got one of those headsets, or, you know, five years down the track, a set of glasses that are overlaying information straight into your eyes, What's comms going to look like?

[00:08:37] Mel: Yeah, and that's what really interests me. And I think about it from my own perspective, from a change communication perspective, for example.

[00:08:44] Mel: Like, uh, I've worked on changes before where people have moved offices, for example. You know, massive new office spaces that I can just imagine being able to put on a headset and being able to see this is what your new building is going to look and feel like. That as a change experience is [00:09:00] just next level. That's so cool.

[00:09:03] Ben: One thing that VR does amazingly well is convey space and scale like, like no other medium can. Um, I guess again, to zoom out a bit, the, the end game of VR is to remove the abstractions that we currently have, mainly in the form of a keyboard and a mouse between how we interact with information.

[00:09:27] Mel: Yeah, like I'm even thinking like back CEO video, instead of just here click on this link and watch it on the intranet. Stick on a headset and actually almost see the CEO in front of you talking to you and having a conversation like...

[00:09:40] Ben: In their office or in their boardroom. Yeah. Out on site.

[00:09:43] Mel: That's so cool.

[00:09:45] Mel: And so apart from sort of comms, obviously a lot of what we do in my business, but also comms people in general tend to run a lot of training. Have you seen some good use cases for training with VR?

[00:09:56] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Training is really the next big industry that [00:10:00] has, is quite mature. Relative, relative to a lot of other things that VR can do. So it's particularly good for simulations where you want to take people to hazardous environments. That's another no brainer, because you can do that sort of stuff safely, and you can give people the training that invokes the muscle memory of actually doing that act.

[00:10:23] Ben: Uh, a friend of mine who does some pretty hardcore, uh, training, uh, syllabuses and that sort of stuff for the military said that they've, they've seen simulations for stuff as specific as, learning how to replace a missile on the side of a helicopter in an active battlefield. Um, so super hyper specialized, but imagine what that would cost to do in real life.

[00:10:48] Ben: It's just not, not really possible. So, um, something that VR is good for is repetition, and so people can run through that exercise as many times as they want and get that muscle memory. [00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Mel: I was at a conference last year where one of the presenters put on a headset. It was sort of a bit of a crossover with AI as well. But she showed a use case of surgeons or medical students learning, how to sort of do surgery, but on like an imaginary in inverted commas body in front of them, which was so cool.

[00:11:21] Ben: Yeah, so another, another area of training that has also starting to take off a lot more is soft skills training. So there's a Brisbane company for instance called Work Window and they are the pioneers of school based vocational training where, um, students can put on a headset and essentially do work experience.

[00:11:44] Ben: It'll take them out to businesses and the businesses provide the content to show students what it's like to work in their place. And as part of that package, they also have an interview practice simulation where you can sit [00:12:00] in front of an avatar who's going to interview you. Ask you standard interview questions and using AI and stuff, the students can just talk using natural language.

[00:12:10] Ben: They can respond like they normally would, uh, and that will actually synthesise feedback on their responses. So soft skills is something that's also absolutely taking off.

[00:12:20] Mel: I can see. Huge implications in terms of just general conversation skills, you know, having those hard conversations with people constructive feedback conversations in general, being able to practice that in what is truly a safe space to be able to do that.

[00:12:36] Ben: Yeah, and that's another thing that I like to tell people about VR is that it's, it's inherently very, very private. So when you put on the headset, no one else can see what you're doing.

[00:12:45] Mel: Um, have you seen any applications or use cases for, say, accessibility?

[00:12:51] Ben: Look, I'm sure they exist. Um, I can't think of anything that I've directly [00:13:00] been involved in.

[00:13:03] Mel: Um, I was talking to somebody yesterday and look, this is probably more to do with the crossover to AI, which maybe we should start chatting about, but they were talking about some glasses being developed, maybe by Microsoft, um, for people who are vision impaired and essentially the glasses see what's in front of them and tell them what to avoid and, and those sorts of things, which is really cool, but that's probably more on the AI side, I suppose.

[00:13:25] Ben: Uh, But yeah, augmented reality and AI for sure.

[00:13:29] Mel: Yeah, and I kind of wonder too, uh, again with VR, whether there is a case, use cases there for say, um, neurodiversity. You know, again, it's that private space to have, to practice conversation skills or to, to work through something. Um, yeah.

[00:13:45] Ben: There are a number of companies working specifically on, on mental health and psychological, psychological. Um, sorts of applications that really go in amongst the weeds on the, the theory and the, the science behind a lot of this stuff. [00:14:00] But, when you talked about accessibility, um, I mean one broad thing I would just say is that I think computing and spatial computing in general is going to get much more accessible as, uh, speech interfaces get better and also most of the new headsets, uh, have hand tracking built in as well.

[00:14:20] Ben: So, uh, it was for a long time an issue when you were putting somebody in the headset for the first time, you know, there's like 12 different buttons on the controllers, they're very foreign, you know, they don't, they don't look like your, your PlayStation controller or a mouse or a keyboard. So it's quite difficult for people to get used to that, uh, initially.

[00:14:39] Ben: But, um, again coming back to examples like the Echo example - everyone knows how to use their hands, and so if you build your experiences around those sorts of natural gestural interfaces that just use your hands, uh, the, the onboarding for getting somebody in the headset and getting them going is, like, orders [00:15:00] of magnitude quicker and easier; because once you put the headset on and they look at their hands, they know how to press a button or grab a door handle, and it, it really does, it's, it's, it's a real leveler, I guess.

[00:15:11] Mel: Yeah, that's a really good point. So how does VR and AI work together or how are we going to see them work together perhaps?

[00:15:20] Ben: Yeah, okay, so I guess a couple of the big shifts that that I see, um, I see AI playing a real role in terms of as an assistant. Um, so Microsoft already starting to roll out their integration of CoPilot into all of the the Office suite, which is going to do things like filter your inbox, and take notes for you, and all of that stuff is going to carry through to all of the VR apps.

[00:15:48] Ben: And as these companies start to make those programs VR native, all of that's going to come along with it. So you could imagine, not too long [00:16:00] from now, you might be going for a run, you put your headphones on, you don't necessarily need to have a headset. But you'll just be talking to your Microsoft co pilot as it filters your inbox and gives you the updates.

[00:16:14] Mel: Oh wow.

[00:16:15] Ben: So currently it's being used for, for like speech recognition and as I was saying before with the soft skills stuff for, um, listening to you, processing what you're saying and then giving you dynamic feedback. And it's also driving dynamic interactions with, um, virtual characters and that sort of thing.

[00:16:33] Ben: That's how I'm seeing it used at this stage. But I mean, again, the sky's the limit.

[00:16:40] Mel: Yeah. How fast is it moving?

[00:16:43] Ben: Oh, way faster than people think. I mean, as just a really super simple example, most of the time when I put people in a headset, even now who haven't tried it before, they're astounded by the level of quality of this tech and what it can do.

[00:16:59] Ben: I [00:17:00] think the vast majority of the population have no idea where it's at. It's really going to sneak up on them.

[00:17:06] Mel: Yeah, kind of like AI did, right? Like, AI isn't new. It's been around for a while. But ChatGPT came along and was like, oh, wow, it can do that.

[00:17:16] Ben: Well, exactly. And in a big way, it also stole the limelight from VR and spatial computing tech, which was the thing that everyone was talking about between sort of 2015, 2018, 19.

[00:17:31] Ben: And then AI came along and everyone's kind of forgotten about VR, but it's, it's still very much cracking on very quickly.

[00:17:39] Mel: And I also see, you know, we're now in this hybrid working environment too. I can see how VR could be a real way of like really connecting with other people so much more, um, deeply than what we're doing now, like through a screen.

[00:17:55] Ben: Yeah. Telepresence is another really big use case for VR. Uh, I [00:18:00] mean, at this stage, when you, you jump into, uh, I guess the VR equivalent of Zoom, you have your head and a floating body and some hands, but you'd be amazed at how much Fidelity there is in body language, even just with that. And the, I mean, the Apple Vision Pro and the Quest Pro, they have eye tracking.

[00:18:23] Ben: So, it will, it will track where your gaze is and whether you're blinking, and so you can actually get a lot of that expression in there. A simple example that I like to tell people about is that, um, There's this game on, on quest called walk about mini golf. It's a really simple, serene, meditative mini golf game, but it's easier to join somebody in there than it is to send a link and join a zoom call basically, or it's as easy.

[00:18:49] Ben: So I often when I'm hooking up with friends overseas, you know, I'm like, Hey, join me for random mini golf. Let's just have a chat.

[00:18:56] Mel: That's awesome. That does sound very [00:19:00] calming actually, you know, and we often talk about, you know, get out of the office, go for a walking meeting, rah, rah, rah. Like this is the way you could do it in that hybrid world or globalized world as well, which is so cool.

[00:19:12] Mel: What are some of the challenges or issues though that we need to be aware of?

[00:19:18] Ben: I mean, privacy is an issue with any computing platform and VR is no different. I guess some of the specific complexities are around biometric data. So as... as headsets are fitted with more and more sensors and gyros and it's looking at your eyes, it's detecting where you're looking, it's tracking all of this stuff, um, you know, what, what a company is going to be doing with that data. And there will inevitably be bad actors, um, but people are still figuring that stuff out.

[00:19:51] Mel: So it sounds like the ethical frameworks, similar to AI in that sense that, um, yeah, we're playing catch up... in terms of policy [00:20:00] and regulation.

[00:20:01] Mel: That's right.

[00:20:01] Ben: Yeah, I guess one of the other, uh, things to, to watch out for is that there's good VR design and there's bad VR design. So bad VR design is, is not very, uh, interactive and it can make you sick. Whereas, um, good VR design is comfortable and fun.

[00:20:21] Mel: Yeah, true. Okay. So we don't want to feel seasick. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. What, uh, now I've heard you talk about this. What are the VR giggles?

[00:20:30] Ben: Well, um, it's basically, it happens pretty much every time somebody puts the headset on for the first time.

[00:20:38] Ben: And like I said, people are generally astounded at, at what it really feels like. Because you cannot, you cannot describe what it's like trying VR for the first time. I describe it as a waking dream. So the first time I took the headset off, coming from VR back to normal reality, It didn't feel like I was turning off the Nintendo.

[00:20:59] Ben: It felt like I [00:21:00] was switching from one reality to the other. And they were really, they were really on par. And that's, that was the thing that I just couldn't reconcile for a long time. And it does, it just makes you, you laugh out loud. It's a sense of delight that I've not really found any other way to describe, except for, I don't know, like snowboarding or something.

[00:21:21] Mel: Uh, final question on this. So what would be your top three to five tips for people who just want to get started using virtual reality in communications?

[00:21:31] Ben: Well, I mean, it's the same for anybody in any industry. You've just got to try it to start with.

[00:21:36] Ben: So we, you know, I ran a workshop, thanks to you, last week with a bunch of folks who hadn't really tried it. Uh, and I put them in some, some comms-y experiences. But then at the end of the night, everyone just wanted to hang out and shoot robots. And they had a great time.

[00:21:52] Mel: I did hear about the robots, yes. Yeah.

[00:21:55] Ben: Well, exactly. But that, that, um. That program, it, [00:22:00] it really leans hard into that idea of your body as the controller. Um, I mean, I, I try to invite myself to as many companies as I can to, to do demos like that just for that reason.

[00:22:11] Ben: Because like I said, you can't, you can't describe it. You've got to try it for yourself.

[00:22:15] Mel: And how do you make it though? I mean, at this stage, maybe it's early days in terms of the equipment that you need. And that's the thing. But if you're looking at a company, you know, with a couple of hundred, even a couple of thousand people, how do you scale it to that?

[00:22:29]

[00:22:29] Ben: That's a really good question. So inevitably in a big company you end up with a fleet of headsets, so many headsets.

[00:22:35] Mel: Right.

[00:22:36] Ben: And so between the content and the headsets and the user, you have what's called an MDM, a mobile device management platform. And that allows you to individually address every single piece of hardware that you have.

[00:22:49] Ben: It means you can remotely update them, assign users, assign content, and all that sort of stuff. Because to switch on every headset, put it on, see what's in there, do updates... like it's just ... It becomes a [00:23:00] real pain really quick. So yeah, an MDM is crucial to basically being able to manage a fleet of headsets.

[00:23:06] Mel: Right, okay. And sorry, I know I'd said one last question, but that was another question, but I'm so interested. Okay. So Ben, there's three questions I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those?

[00:23:19] Ben: Sure.

[00:23:19] Mel: Okay. Question number one, what's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:23:29] Ben: Yeah. Okay. I like this question. So I'm not really going to answer it as a comms person, but more as a designer because I worked as a designer and, uh, um, somebody who made content in, uh, within a communications team for a long time. Uh, and I would say that the two tools or practices that I've relied on the most, are restraint.

[00:23:53] Ben: So restraint is as a designer is one of the hardest things, but the most useful things to practice [00:24:00] because Humans take on information in a serial nature. As much as we want to think that we can do many things at once, we really take on ideas one thing at a time. So, the best way to get somebody to understand it is to put a big ol filter on it and pair it back to the most simplest elements and that's where restraint really comes into play.

[00:24:25] Ben: The other thing is just sleeping on it. Every time I would make something, if I had the time to sleep on it and have a look at it the next morning, it always made it better.

[00:24:36] Mel: I call that the incubation period. You just need to let it, let it warm up and percolate. And then, yeah, you come back to it with fresh perspective. Love it. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:24:52] Ben: Um, listen, , I wish they would listen more. Listen and ask questions. I mean, I know it sounds so basic [00:25:00] and reductive, but, um, yeah, if, if you're in any sort of... if you're a designer or a comms person or it doesn't matter what it is, just listen. Just spend more time listening.

[00:25:10] Mel: Yep. Love it. And final question, who do you turn to when you need communication advice?

[00:25:18] Ben: Oh, um. I guess I kind of always measure myself against whatever the industry standard is for whatever it is that I'm working on. So when I was doing more graphic design sort of stuff, you know, I would jump onto Behance. net and just see what was the coolest stuff out there and just say, hey, does my stuff measure up to this? Uh, and these days in the VR space, it's pretty much the same deal. I'm, I'm looking at what's, what's popular, what people seem to vibe on. And then I try and pull it apart and just see, like, what are the elements and the principles that they're using to make this feel as good as it is.

[00:25:58] Ben: Because, [00:26:00] again, coming back to that idea of how humans take on information, it's all about the feedback loop that we're unconscious of, um, and how we respond to things. And certain things make us feel good and make us want more, and some things don't. So it's just always trying to pull on that thread.

[00:26:17] Mel: Love it. Well, Ben, thank you so much for your time today. Where can people find out more about virtual reality and what you do?

[00:26:25] Ben: Uh, you go to my website, which is just Composit with no E on the end, dot design, um, people who is like, is there a. com. au on the end? I'm like, nope. Composit dot design, which is pretty easy to, to, um, to remember.

[00:26:39] Ben: Um, and I'm on Insta and LinkedIn, I guess, for, for work type stuff.

[00:26:44] Mel: Fantastic.

[00:26:45] Mel: We'll pop those links in the show notes as well. Ben, thank you again so much for your time today.

[00:26:50] Ben: Thanks for having me.