[00:00:00] Mel: Imagine this. You're working in a large organisation that has offices across different countries, and you're on a group Zoom call. And try as you might, a group of employees from one country in particular, just won't offer any input into the conversation or answer any questions or even put their cameras on. Afterwards, maybe you're thinking. What did I do wrong?

[00:00:23] Mel: Or maybe you're frustrated they didn't say anything. Maybe you're thinking what was even the point of that meeting? But then their emails start coming in with their thoughts and questions on the discussion. Why didn't they just ask that during the Zoom call? The reality is we live in a globalised world and in that world, we have to be so much more mindful of cross-cultural communication than ever before. And that's what today's episode is all about.

[00:00:47] Mel: Hello, and welcome back to Less Chatter, More Matter - the communications podcast. I'm your host Mel Loy, and if this is your first time [00:01:00] tuning in, thanks for giving us a whirl. You'll find this podcast is full of practical advice and tips for becoming an even better communicator. And part of that journey is learning how to tailor your communication for different audiences. Which can often mean understanding how to communicate across different cultures, nationalities, and languages. I certainly experienced some of those differences myself in my work around Asia and further abroad. But also just between companies or local communities, the differences can be enormous. So, where do you even start with understanding cross cultural differences and tailoring your communication to suit?

[00:01:40] Mel: To answer that question, I've asked an expert to join this week show. Victoria Rennoldson one is a communication coach and cultural intelligence trainer and the CEO and founder of Culture Cuppa. She helps future global leaders with leadership communication, speaking clarity, confidence, and cultural intelligence to achieve their next promotion. [00:02:00] She also supports multicultural teams with their training to build trust and collaboration with cultural intelligence, growing themselves, their teams and their organisations globally. Victoria works with individuals and teams all over the world, virtually and in person, is a keynote speaker and also the host of the top ranked podcast, Cultural Communication Confidence.

[00:02:22] Mel: In this episode, we delve into her top tips for communicating across cultures, mistakes to avoid, and where technology can either help or hinder. It was a great chat. I could have peppered Victoria with questions for hours. Luckily for you. I did not. So sit back, relax, and get ready to take some notes. Here's Victoria.

[00:02:43] Mel: Victoria, welcome to the show.

[00:02:45] Victoria: Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here Mel.

[00:02:48] Mel: I'm really excited to have you here. So before we get too far into it, tell us a little bit about what you do and how you came to develop your expertise in this space.

[00:02:58] Victoria: Absolutely. So I'm a [00:03:00] communication coach and cultural intelligence trainer. I'm based in London, the UK. And I got into this because I worked in corporate in international organisations for 12 years and was working in large international teams, was working in teams that were working across functions, across countries and experience, I suppose, some of the communication challenges and some of the cultural challenges that went with that.

[00:03:25] Victoria: And it was during that time that I was thinking, there must be something here. There must be something I can do to help people in this space. Cause I was kind of having this sense that I could see the nuances. I could see when things were going well and when things were perhaps not going so well as well.

[00:03:40] Victoria: So fast forward, um, nine years ago, I set up this business and now I'm in this space helping individuals and teams, helping them to grow themselves in their careers, in their businesses and helping teams basically to work better together.

[00:03:55] Mel: Oh, that's awesome. And you're of course based in London. So yes, being in [00:04:00] Europe, I guess that's pretty important because there's a lot of different cultures and a lot of different languages around, where you are, right?

[00:04:07] Victoria: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean even in London, but actually, you know the funny thing is I end up working with people all over the world because this is a reality right? Virtual global work working is here to stay. I'm often supporting individuals and teams who really rarely if at all meet their whole team. In fact what they have to be really successful at is collaborating together, building the trust quickly to get stuff done, to be able to deliver their projects.

[00:04:34] Victoria: And of course, if that's, you know, we've got all the amazing tools to do that, the Zooms and the Teams and the Webexes. But that's just a tool. You actually know how, need to know how to communicate. How to connect with people. And that's often sometimes when the challenges come in.

[00:04:51] Mel: And it's not just a cross cultural thing either, is it?

[00:04:54] Mel: We now live in this very hybrid world post COVID anyway. So, uh, being [00:05:00] able to connect with people well through a medium like Zoom or like Teams, whatever is... such a new challenge for a lot of companies as well and for a lot of leaders. So yeah, it's, it's very layered. Um, why is it important to communicate in a way that meets the needs of different cultures?

[00:05:15] Mel: Because, you know, there's often a, I guess, a hierarchy of communication. You would have seen it in the big international corporations where it comes from the top down. It's not always tailored to where it's going. Why is that so important?

[00:05:30] Victoria: So, I mean, the first thing we have to recognise that obviously there are lots of different cultures.

[00:05:34] Victoria: So we could be talking about organisational culture, department function, even team cultures. But when I think about national culture and the way that people show up, there are these nuances in the way that people communicate, in the way they receive information, in the way that they show up in the meeting room.

[00:05:54] Victoria: So maybe some of the listeners and... people who are watching this actually recognise this, that [00:06:00] sometimes in a meeting room, you sometimes hear from the same people time and time again. Those voices dominate. Sometimes you never hear from people in the room. And you might be asking yourself, well, why is that?

[00:06:11] Victoria: Well, this is where cultural values, cultural dynamics can really play a role. Maybe somebody feels like they need to wait until they hear from the senior leadership first. Maybe they feel like they can't challenge senior leaders in the room in front of others. Maybe it's about the fact that they're just not comfortable unmuting and speaking up in front of other people.

[00:06:33] Victoria: And by the way, that's not just about, you know, somebody who's junior in their career. These are culturally, um, influenced. So for me, this is incredibly important. You may not hear from all the voices, you may not be able to engage all your employees unless we really understand how to do this well, how to encourage everybody to contribute.

[00:06:54] Victoria: And that leads me to my next question then, which is what are some of the biggest challenges you've noticed [00:07:00] that leaders and organizations face when they are trying to communicate across different languages and across different cultures?

[00:07:06] Victoria: So I think there's often assumption that there's one globalised way of doing this. Like there is a best practice and that if you've been a leader in, um, let's say one, um, pretty monocultural, um, environment, or perhaps you have been working in diverse cultures, but you've got to a point where you've got a leadership style that's worked incredibly well and you're used to doing it and getting the results and being able to engage people well.

[00:07:30] Victoria: But the reality is, if you're starting to work with more diverse teams, working with teams based in multiple locations, you might find the things you've relied on are just not working as well as they have in the past. You might find that you're not quite getting the connection to your employees, not really getting the feedback you're looking for, and that's when it becomes challenging.

[00:07:54] Victoria: So what I always say to leaders and to people who are sort of heads of teams, you really need to start to think about [00:08:00] yourself. You need to understand your own culture and this is something we never, like, it's really unusual to take that pause, to step back and go, well, what is my culture? Like how am I showing up?

[00:08:11] Mel: You're absolutely right. I've never even thought about that.

[00:08:15] Victoria: Right? So this is the funny thing. We just don't think about how we show up in the room and how is culture influencing that. And, you know, I've mentioned a few of the dynamics like power dynamics, hierarchy, direct, indirect communication style, but even the way how expressive you are, like this is really culturally driven.

[00:08:34] Victoria: And I'm sure that some of the people listening, like have, can think of examples where they've worked with people who've been incredibly expressive and incredibly, you know, high volume with their body language and the way that they're talking. And then with others. You know, actually, it's much more normal to have more quiet body language.

[00:08:52] Victoria: In fact, it might be really difficult to read what their emotions are or how they're receiving the messages that you're sharing with them. So [00:09:00] this is why it's so critical. And I always say to leaders, look, you've got to start with yourself. You need to understand your own culture, and the influences that you have, and then it's really important to understand your team.

[00:09:11] Victoria: So you can work out, like, how can I adapt my communication approach, my behaviours, to really get true engagement here.

[00:09:18] Mel: And that reminds me of, uh, one of my favourite books is Erin Meyer's, The Culture Map. And that was an eye opener for me, absolute eye opener, especially here in Australia. Uh, we do tend to do a lot more work with Asian and Pacifica cultures as well.

[00:09:33] Mel: And, uh, yeah, having done some work in Malaysia and Singapore and a few, uh, different spots around Asia - definitely had to adapt. The way I, uh, even just in a workshop, got people to get engaged and ask questions in front of other people was a whole other, uh, way for me to, to learn how to facilitate because in Australia, at least the, a lot of the workshops I run here, as you say, there are people who just don't shut up, you know, they suck the [00:10:00] oxygen out of the room; but then I'll be in a workshop in, you know, somewhere in Malaysia and it can be very, very quiet until we do something that gets people working maybe in pairs or in small groups and then they're more comfortable.

[00:10:13] Mel: So finding that was really quite interesting. And, uh, yeah, as I was saying, Erin's book really opened that up for me. And I'm wondering if you could give us some examples of some of the differences between maybe Australian or British communication and other nationalities that you observe and that you coach people on.

[00:10:31] Victoria: Absolutely. Well, the first thing to say, it's really interesting because of course there are nuances between Australian and British culture, as I'm sure some people will recognise, right? We are, you know, Anglo, we are speaking the same language. But there are absolute nuances in the way that we communicate.

[00:10:47] Victoria: And by the way, you know, when I talk about these kind of, um, these nationalities, we've got to acknowledge as well that it's generalisations. I think that's the other very, very important thing, which is why, you know, there's the research [00:11:00] very much out there from Dr. David Livermore, from Erin Mayer. Which, you know, gives you some indications around, like, who are, you know, who are the British or the Australians or the Malaysians.

[00:11:11] Victoria: But these are always starting points and what I always say to people is: you need to really, you know, take your own, I do these cultural intelligence assessments, but you need to do that yourself to really understand who are you as an individual. Ideally, you need your team to do that as well. But coming back to the question, you know, what are some of the differences that you see?

[00:11:30] Victoria: I mean, we've talked about some of these dynamics. I've worked a lot with, I mean, really across the world, but if I take some of the most, I suppose, um, extreme examples where there are biggest differences. So I've worked a lot with Brazilian clients, I've worked a lot with Japanese clients, and, you know, working with Japanese clients was really very, very interesting.

[00:11:50] Victoria: I've talked about expressiveness. This definitely came into play here. So, I learned that I had to almost imagine my, my body language like a volume dial. I had [00:12:00] to turn down my expressiveness. Otherwise it was too overwhelming. Like you, I recognise that actually there is a real preference to collaborate in smaller groups.

[00:12:09] Victoria: Um, to discuss first before offering an opinion. And you really can't just ask somebody to unmute and say what they think that just isn't going to work. There's going to be like total silence. And even, you know, the other thing I'd say is like, even in, I know some of the people listening will be maybe doing, um, employment engagement surveys, getting feedback, you know, even asking questions about the organisation.

[00:12:33] Victoria: It can be quite tricky, even in anonymous situations to get a true picture because people do not want to criticise maybe in Japan. the organisation, the senior leadership about what they're doing. So there may be different ways you need to do things like in smaller group consultations. So that's just, you know, one of some examples from Japan.

[00:12:53] Victoria: If I think about my Brazilian clients working with individuals and teams over there, for me, this [00:13:00] is where I really rock up the expressiveness, the warmth, the connection. And I think there's also the understanding about, you know, different relationships to time and how I'm prioritising how things are done.

[00:13:13] Victoria: So, for example, in Brazil, like, time is more flexible. Um, concept than perhaps in the UK, um, certainly compared to Japan. And so sometimes you need to recognise that's okay. Sometimes there will be some flexibility on timings, deadlines, turning up to meetings on time, et cetera. And these are just a couple of examples.

[00:13:33] Victoria: There are 10 cultural values that I work with in my cultural intelligence assessments, and it's really interesting to deep dive into all of these.

[00:13:41] Mel: Hmm. That sounds fascinating, actually, and we could probably unpack that for hours, but we won't. I'm sure, I'm sure people can, can come to you and unpack that with you.

[00:13:51] Mel: But my next question, uh, in terms of, we did touch on this just a little bit before, but what role does or can technology play in [00:14:00] either hindering or assisting with cross cultural communication? So for example, how messages come across online versus in person or how tools like, uh, AI or Google translator might be used.

[00:14:13] Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. So, look, these tools are absolutely amazing. And, of course, they're evolving all the time. I think things like, you know, let's say, Google Translate, if you want to communicate in other languages, amazing. AI, ChatGPT, again, amazing, amazing tools. But I think we have to recognise what is the ultimate goal with cultural intelligence, like what are we trying to do here?

[00:14:34] Victoria: And I think, you know, my very, very strong belief is what we're trying to do is connect human to human. And there are nuances in this. And as humans, we're really good at, like, really adapting our communication in the moment. Having that real periphery awareness of what's going on; and being quite choiceful, even in a split second about, okay, let me just try this a different way.

[00:14:57] Victoria: And what one of the things that I know [00:15:00] is I'm really aware of is at the moment with the AI is that it's actually coming from a place which is built up from models that have the Anglo Western European inputs into them. So at the moment, the AI has almost some inbuilt biases into it. So this is something we need to be really conscious of.

[00:15:18] Victoria: So, if you're designing messages via AI, via ChatGPT. So that's just something like, perhaps listeners kind of need to be aware of. But I mean, it's great for brainstorming and great for, I find it a really great tool for developing like different styles of messaging. I'm sure you've, I know you've talked about that quite a lot here on this podcast, but from a cultural point of view...

[00:15:39] Victoria: I think you've also kind of be need to sort of take that step back and also be quite nuanced. So perhaps do some more. I mean, I would say to people, look, start with observation, really understand the people who you're working with, listen to them, ask really good quality questions. Um, don't assume you know, just because somebody is Japanese that they're like, the [00:16:00] research that says all Japanese, you know, Japanese people will like this.

[00:16:02] Victoria: We need to be really conscious of not stereotyping and recognising the individuals we have, the people that we work with.

[00:16:10] Mel: And that's a really good point. Actually, I was running some training, uh, about a month ago now for a team at a corporate in Sydney, and we were talking about the difference between individualist and collectivist cultures.

[00:16:21] Mel: So, uh, you know, that, especially when it comes to change and reactants to change, but also just in terms of how you tailor a message, whether it's more towards, you know, the individual's contribution to the whole or what they get out of it. And even though technically Australia is, very much on the individualist side of things, their point, this team was like, but our company is more of a collectivist culture. It's all about the team. And so even down to that sort of microcosm of team level or company level is different. Uh, so it's a really good point to raise that we, you know, we can't just layer these assumptions on. They're a good place to start, I think.

[00:16:59] Mel: Um, [00:17:00] but you know, it's digging deeper. So on that, what are your top maybe three to five tips on how we can adapt our communication for different cultural audiences?

[00:17:11] Victoria: So I think it's absolutely thinking, I mean, I have this absolute mantra, which is, it's about them, not you. So, you know, we all have our preferred ways of communicating, our ways of showing up in the world, the way that we think is the best way to communicate a message.

[00:17:25] Victoria: But in reality, that is our view of the world. So we have to recognise that people have their different ways of seeing things. So, do your research, understand who it is that needs to hear these messages, understand how you're going to adapt what you're saying to that audience. I mean, it's basic stuff, but when it comes to working across different cultures, it's actually incredibly more important because you really do need to make sure that the messages are landing and people are engaging with those messages as well.

[00:17:54] Victoria: So this is, I think, a really, really important point. I think, therefore, you need to understand [00:18:00] yourself. You need to understand, like, how is your culture showing up? What might you need to adjust? The nuances of what you're doing, how you're saying it, your tone of voice, even your body language. Um, if it's, uh, in a spoken format.

[00:18:14] Victoria: But even in written format, like, really understanding, like, what is the best way to go? Is it go direct in? Is it to be more indirect? What is the best way to time some of the messages that you're trying to land? So, you know, really It's them about them, not you. And then thinking about, like, understanding yourself so that you can really adjust what you're doing.

[00:18:35] Mel: I love that. And I'll just throw one more question at you. Where is a good place for people to start? Like, if they're not sure, where do they even start with, ... you know, doing that assessment or asking the right questions or whatever that looks like, where would you, what tools could they look, call on or where could they go for information?

[00:18:52] Victoria: Absolutely. So from, obviously it'd be, if people want to do the cultural intelligence assessment for themselves, for their teams to really understand [00:19:00] themselves in this space, then feel free to reach out to me. Um, LinkedIn. So I'm Victoria Rennoldson my personal profile over there. Um, and I'm, I'm, Posting on these topics, like I'm sharing these topics every day during the working week.

[00:19:13] Victoria: So people are really welcome to come over, listen to some of the strategies, tips. I've got my own podcast as well, which is called Cultural Communication Confidence. So yeah, there's lots of free resources there, lots of strategies that I'm sharing, and people can come and learn from that. But yeah, for sure, come and take the assessment as well with me.

[00:19:33] Mel: That would be awesome. Now, I know I said that was the last question, but I actually just have one more. And this is more just out of curiousity than anything else, because I was having a conversation about this the other day. Now you speak other languages than English, don't you?

[00:19:46] Victoria: I do. Absolutely. Yeah. German and Russian.

[00:19:48] Mel: German and Russian. So in all your, uh, experience with, you know, speaking with people around the world, if a person who spoke English as their native language was going to learn any other language, what do you [00:20:00] reckon they should learn?

[00:20:01] Victoria: Ooh. Uh, so I think that's a really interesting question because English dominates, right?

[00:20:05] Victoria: Like, it's amazing how it still dominates in the world today. I think that's a really live debate. And I think, you know, it's involving the picture here in the UK about even what kids, what languages kids are learning. But my view is it should be Mandarin. Absolutely. I think that is the language that people should be learning.

[00:20:22] Victoria: Interestingly, I think in schools over here, people still learn languages like French and German, um, maybe Spanish, you know, definitely Spanish would be up there for me as a language, um, that, um, people should be learning as well. But for me, yeah, absolutely. I think there should be, um, it's probably going to be that choice between Mandarin or Spanish, I reckon.

[00:20:41] Mel: Yeah. Isn't that interesting. It's, it's funny you say that because, uh, this friend of mine and I, who were having this conversation, kind of settled on the same thing, actually. Um, in school, when I went through primary school and high school, we learned Japanese, uh, but it was ... the late eighties, early nineties, where Japan was quite a big powerhouse in the world as well [00:21:00] at that point.

[00:21:00] Mel: So, but where else do you speak Japanese outside of Japan? So it's pretty limited. So that's why we were thinking, yeah, is it Spanish? Cause it used to be French and then it was something else, but Mandarin definitely this part of the world. Absolutely. Yeah. Very important. Well, Victoria, I have three questions.

[00:21:16] Mel: I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those?

[00:21:20] Victoria: Absolutely. Let's do it.

[00:21:21] Mel: Bring it on, she says. Okay. What is one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:21:31] Victoria: Do you know, I think one of the things, it's slightly different from the topics we've been talking about here today, but for me, it's about... "said is better than perfect."

[00:21:36] Victoria: And the reason I say this is that I have learned this lesson myself through my life. I was a bit of a perfectionist, still recovering from that a bit, myself, but you know, with the people I work with and the people, particularly on the communication side, sometimes this is a temptation to tinker, to keep going, to keep perfecting.

[00:21:57] Victoria: And there's just a reality, which is sometimes you just need [00:22:00] to say it. You need to get the messages out. You need to stand up and speak up. And if these things are not said, then nothing happens. Nothing changes. So this for me is something that is really important. And particularly for people who experience any challenges around confidence with speaking. That is important. Said is better than perfect.

[00:22:19] Mel: I think there's probably a few other recovering perfectionists listening to this who would be shaking their heads going, yes, I know, I know. 80 percent might, and one of the things I tell my clients and people I coach is your 80 percent is somebody else's 100 percent too, because when you're really good at what you do, it's already going to be somebody else's a hundred percent. So, and if you think you've, if you think you've reached perfect, then you've stopped learning. So

[00:22:47] Victoria: Yeah for sure. It's a journey. I think it's a journey and look, you know, I'm very honest. Like I think I'm always on my journey with whether it's communication, cultural intelligence, there's no end point and there shouldn't be either. Like this is the whole point about [00:23:00] our growth. Like we're always on that journey.

[00:23:02] Mel: And one of the great things about communication, it's such an evolving sector anyway, so, yeah. Uh, second question. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

[00:23:15] Victoria: I would love people to be more human and feel like it's less of a performance.

[00:23:21] Victoria: So I think I'm particularly, I suppose, thinking about things like presenting or, you know, doing things where you're more in front of a larger audience. But I do feel like people sometimes get into that mode of, okay, I need to put on my performance me and show up in this way.

[00:23:35] Mel: I'm Sasha Fierce.

[00:23:36] Victoria: Yeah. And I think, you know, it's just not how, you know, people connect these days. And I think even if you are doing a TEDx talk, even if you're standing in an audience of a thousand, people connect with you as a human. And the best way you can do this is be fully, fully conversational. And in the way that you're approaching it, being you, showing up as you, just recognising that that [00:24:00] is the best way to engage people.

[00:24:01] Mel: I could not agree more. And your last question, who do you turn to for communication advice?

[00:24:08] Victoria: That is a great question. Well, it's probably no big secret, but I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn and I just, I love, I love the community over there. I learn a lot from other people. I get inspired. Um, I connect with people... like Mel, I mean, I think we found each other on LinkedIn, right?

[00:24:24] Mel: Through somebody else I met on LinkedIn.

[00:24:25] Victoria: Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So, you know, LinkedIn for me is a brilliant place to network. There's a great community there. You know, I've met lots of people who have then been on my show, I've gone on other people's shows, but equally podcasting for me is a brilliant space and, you know, that has been a really great way for me to learn from others, to get inspired, to connect with other people as well. Um, so yeah, for sure. I am a big podcast listener and I'm a really big LinkedIn lover. So, um, yeah. Go learn from the world. I think this is the mantra.

[00:24:56] Mel: Yeah. And I, uh, we are peas in a pod because [00:25:00] I love a good podcast. It's when I'm driving around, that's all I'm listening to most of the time. But you know, these are free ways to learn. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars on training all the time. Go on LinkedIn. Listen to podcasts, read a book, like there's so many ways you can learn now, which is so awesome. Well, Victoria, thank you so much for spending the time today to talk on Less Chatter, More Matter. So people can find you over on LinkedIn and on your podcast.

[00:25:28] Mel: Is there any other ways they can get in touch with you?

[00:25:31] Victoria: Yeah, for sure. I mean, people can reach out to me, um, on email. I'm Victoria@culturecuppa.Com and, you know, come and check out the website as well, CultureCuppa.com

[00:25:41] Mel: Fantastic and we'll put all those links in the show notes. Thanks very much Victoria.

[00:25:44] Victoria: Thanks Mel, great to join you.