[00:00:00] Mel: You've probably heard change is the new normal, and well, it's right. Change in our lives and our workplaces has never been as big or as fast or as frequent, and it is not slowing down anytime soon. You might even be feeling it a bit yourself right now. In fact, a report from Accenture out earlier this year reported there has been a 183 percent increase in the rate of change in businesses since 2019, a 33 percent increase since 2023 alone.

[00:00:34] Mel: And that's not all. While 88 percent of C Suite execs anticipated even a faster rate of change this year, Only about half said they were fully prepared for it. Technology and talent or skills changes were considered to be the most likely to disrupt businesses. But again, almost half of execs said their business wasn't fully prepared for the accelerating rate of technological change.

[00:00:58] Mel: So it's no wonder [00:01:00] that change management and change communications roles have been in growing demand in recent times, and competition is fierce for great practitioners, which is why I spoke to Eloise Seidelin. Eloise is the host of the Change It podcast and the founder of Change It Talent, a recruitment business specialising in change management roles.

[00:01:21] Mel: With a background in coaching, she is passionate about helping organisations and professionals navigate the evolving world of change. Originally from England, as you'll pick up from her delightful accent, Eloise has traveled extensively, having been raised by her nomadic mum. A horse rider, fitness fanatic, and former personal trainer, she now calls Sydney home where she enjoys the sunny outdoors with her Cocker Spaniel.

[00:01:44] Mel: Eloise brings a vibrant blend of English, expertise, energy and passion to everything she does, whether in recruitment, podcasting or life. And you'll certainly hear that come through in this conversation. So Eloise and I chatted about everything from changes within the change sector [00:02:00] to the skills we're going to need to develop advice for people considering change as a career and everything in between.

[00:02:06] Mel: I really enjoyed this chat with Eloise, and I think you will too. So without further ado, here it is.

[00:02:14] Mel: Hi, Eloise. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:16] Eloise: Hi, it's great to be here. Thanks, Mel!

[00:02:19] Mel: Thanks for coming on. So before we get stuck into it, tell us a little bit about you. What do you do and how did you come to develop your expertise in this space?

[00:02:29] Eloise: I am the founder of a company called Change It Talent. I started actually, my, my career started in coaching and I've got, um, a background in coaching and corporates in, um, contact centres. And came to Australia about eight years ago. And that was where I was introduced to change management as a profession.

[00:02:51] Eloise: And I originally started recruiting across transformation and then just gravitated towards ... towards change people, and [00:03:00] through that exposure have built my business and I now have a business that specialises in recruiting across change and people related roles in transformation. Um, and also set up my podcast, Change It.

[00:03:16] Mel: Yeah, you've been running that for a little while now. How many episodes have you got?

[00:03:20] Eloise: I've got about 30 episodes, I think.

[00:03:23] Mel: Wow, that's awesome.

[00:03:25] Eloise: Um, far fewer than you have. I love, I love doing it. I love sitting down with people like yourself. Um, and selfishly getting advice from the greats.

[00:03:35] Mel: Oh, I agree. I think it's a very selfish thing, podcasting in a way, because you learn so much from the people you interview as well.

[00:03:42] Mel: So, uh, yeah, it's definitely works both ways. So let's talk about the change sector, because a lot of the people who listen to this podcast, uh, communicators, change managers, project managers, team leaders who work in or experience change all the time. But what are some of the biggest shifts you've [00:04:00] seen over the last few years in terms of that sector?

[00:04:05] Eloise: Look, I think that the sector has changed a lot. I mean, the greatest shift I have seen during my time in recruiting in this space has actually been a good news story, which I'd like to start with, which is that change is more established as a profession. I think the conversations I have now with organisations are... centres of change are being built and change is consolidated and recognised as a profession.

[00:04:33] Eloise: Whereas before, when I was first coming into recruiting in the change management industry, there really was a lack of awareness of the profession. The biggest change that we're experiencing now is that we are moving into this continued change.

[00:04:51] Eloise: And I think that we need to break away from where we have been, where there were upticks in transformation. And businesses are now [00:05:00] trying to create a continual baseline of change and I'm seeing that in my recruitment - businesses are talking much more about change capability uplift, awareness of change, building lower level change expertise and capability and leadership, middle managers and, um, you know, frontline workers.

[00:05:19] Eloise: I think that there is some significant work to still be done there as we move into periods now of psychosocial risk and the role that change is going to have to play with some of those really pertinent, pointed and quite sensitive agendas.

[00:05:35] Mel: Yeah, I think that's really good insights actually. And especially around the psychosocial risk piece, because in talking with Australian clients, I am often surprised to find that a lot of them aren't aware that change management in particular, like specifically is now called out in, uh, workplace health and safety legislation as a psychosocial risk.

[00:05:57] Mel: So... it's very much on the [00:06:00] radar of regulators. What's your feeling around that? Do you find that organisations are aware of that or are they becoming more aware?

[00:06:10] Eloise: I think that it's nuanced. Some of the bigger, more mature organisations are definitely aware and they're front footing tackling this agenda and they're scaling. I think where unfortunately we are seeing a lack of understanding is maybe something just small to mediums. I know that the heavy industries, mining, those that have had to be across this for a lot longer are aware.

[00:06:34] Eloise: Um, but there's still real work to be done, you know, and I think even in the change management profession - if you can get insights into this expertise, do a module, do some training and just dip your toe into the water to build awareness and your understanding. Um, I think it's a real point of difference for people and it's something that we all need to be aware of.

[00:06:56] Mel: I totally agree. One of the things we, you were [00:07:00] just talking about too, was this idea that we are now living in a world of continual change. It's not, you know, as you say, peaks in transformation, it's just constant of constant change in businesses of all shapes and sizes. How well equipped are we as change professionals to respond to those changes and what might we need to do differently?

[00:07:23] Eloise: It's a really good question Mel. Yeah, I think that what I've seen from the market more recently is this shift now, particularly in recruitment of the expertise and level of practitioner that we're recruiting for, which does show to me when I kind of done some measuring and diagnostics on this, that there is a bit of a lack of understanding because it's a change.

[00:07:49] Eloise: We now are seeing organisations really recruiting for that strategy to delivery person more and more frequently. And as a [00:08:00] change practitioner, we're not always used to doing that end to end. And it's quite tiring. We need to prepare ourselves for how we're going to temper and sustain in, in those environments. The work to be done in this space is very much around continual curiosity. I was speaking to Paul Gibbons the other day, um, who's coming on my podcast and he was saying that, you know, as an industry, it is an absolute must that we continue to evolve.

[00:08:29] Eloise: And I think the evolution going back to your question is to continue to be curious, to play with Agile, to play with these models, but also, work out how you can create value with end to end, and it doesn't always need to be a big, meaty strategy pack or a big, meaty impact assessment, but being, I hate to use such cliche word, but kind of nimble and front of mind. So you talk a lot in your work about co design, and that is a [00:09:00] key piece as we move forward, is really having that human centred design, that real hands on, Um, and that doesn't need to be something fancy, it's being front of mind, it's being out with the employees and that builds your, your brand, um, and the awareness for change.

[00:09:18] Eloise: So I think as we move forward, it's that kind of pragmatic person that is out there with the people, um, rather than behind their computer that will continue to create success and harness opportunities.

[00:09:33] Mel: Yeah, I think you've touched on a couple of things there. One is, uh, and it's a, it's a communications principle that I bang on about a lot is that nobody is going to read your 20 page pack. They're not going to read it. So it's a lot of effort for you to put together. And as you say, particularly if you're basing on those old models, it may not even be useful or relevant anymore. So being able to be concise and think about who your audience is for those materials is super [00:10:00] important from my perspective, at least.

[00:10:02] Mel: Um, and I think the other thing that you touched on just then is about those skill sets that we need in terms of relationships as well. So, uh, I find that particularly in change management, uh, that ability to build relationships is so, so critical and I've seen, unfortunately, I've seen examples just this year of, , a change manager or two who weren't really focused on the relationships, just on getting the plan done and getting the assessment done.

[00:10:31] Mel: And that was to their own detriment. Whereas the change managers that I see who really excel are just amazing at building relationships. Is that something you see or look for when you're recruiting?

[00:10:43] Eloise: 100 percent and, let's call it out though, those people that are good at building relationships are also well versed in having to have conversations and I think it's nuanced. Building good [00:11:00] relationships, I see people out there at the moment that are so focused on building good relationships that they feel that relationship, the onus is on them to always give good news and to tell people what they want to hear and I think that's a really dangerous space to play if you're in change.

[00:11:18] Eloise: We need to come with the hard facts, the metrics, this isn't going to land, your people aren't going to be able to absorb the change. And that creates trust and you know, credibility. If you're speaking to a senior leader, I cannot imagine how hard it is to have that conversation that this isn't going to land and we need to push things out. But the impact that it has for the greater good and then the lasting impression that that leaves on the leader.

[00:11:50] Eloise: Um, but you're right. The baseline is having a good relationship so that you can call these things out. And it goes back to. Good contracting with leaders and being [00:12:00] able to have those strategic, firm conversations where you have a seat at the table.

[00:12:07] Eloise: I think it's everything in change. The other thing I would say, um, that I missed in, in the slight difference in the space that we're playing, going back to change as a continuum is the other thing that people could do with doing more of as we go into the future is. It's building capabilities constantly that the change practitioner needs to think more about not just the delivery, but how am I giving this person the rod so that they can catch the fish themselves?

[00:12:38] Eloise: And that's a shift before as particularly as contractors, we were able to do the delivery and walk away. Organisations now want you to build the capabilities.

[00:12:49] Mel: That's a really good point and it's something that I always have in the back of my mind too as I'm consulting with teams is I want to leave this place in a better space... and [00:13:00] capability than where I found it. And that's how you kind of know you've done a good job too. As you say, it's not just delivery. It's like, what's the value that we add? Um, now one of the things that I bang on about all the time, and I know you know, this is that people who do change can't necessarily do comms and vice versa. And I hate it when I see changing comms managers advertise those sorts of things. What's your view on this?

[00:13:24] Eloise: Yeah, I mean, I had Ed Pike on the podcast recently talking about this. It's my number one bugbear. In fact, I wait for a week where I don't have a job brief from a client that's like, you know, the change and comms. I need someone that does the comms and maybe the training too. Um, yeah,

[00:13:45] Mel: I guess they want three people is what you're telling me.

[00:13:47] Eloise: Um, they are professions within their own right. And there are also, you know, I find that change people, really, really strong change people [00:14:00] know to address that conversation and have had that delineation up front with senior stakeholders.

[00:14:08] Eloise: I think in the past, we maybe haven't been firm. We've wanted to fit into every box and tick everything on a job brief. And we maybe have been slightly naughty in not calling it out, and that has created this risk where we see, um, too much being lumped on a change person or too much being lumped on a comms person.

[00:14:31] Mel: I'm really glad we're aligned on that. Um, how do you have that conversation with, uh, you know, when a company comes to you and says, I want to, we need the change and comms person who can also do some training, maybe; how do you have that conversation?

[00:14:47] Eloise: Yeah. A lot of this is actually breaking down. So if, if I have a senior leader come to me and ask me, I do quite frequently have senior leaders come to me with a job brief that is, uh, [00:15:00] packaging everything together.

[00:15:02] Eloise: What I look to them on is putting the onus back on them in terms of what is the, what's the brief, right? Let's unpack what needs to be done, what your expectations are. And we break, I then break that down into the three different types. Uh, so the, the change and what that feels like and looks like, the communications and the training.

[00:15:24] Eloise: Um, and then I actually build a bit of a diagram for them to go, okay, this sits under training, this is under change. And then we talk about what's your number one, your number two, like what comes first. Um, but a lot of the time it's an education piece and, and that really is what it all boils down to and setting things up for success.

[00:15:45] Eloise: Quite often you see change being brought in too soon.

[00:15:48] Mel: Yes.

[00:15:49] Eloise: Um, recently because they're ticking a box, I've been told I need to get change and then the change person goes in and goes, "We've got no program plan."

[00:15:57] Mel: What are we going to change? [00:16:00] Yeah. And, and, uh, I think you're right. There's, it does depend on the context, obviously.

[00:16:06] Mel: Uh, and you know, vice versa is also bringing in the comms people far too late when, you know, the cat's already out of the bag, uh, and we're, we've lost that opportunity to get early buy in as well, which is, as we know, so crucial. Another question for you, then, what do you think we need to do to make sure that businesses of all shapes and sizes continue to see the value in the change profession?

[00:16:32] Eloise: Yeah, this is a great question, Mel. I think, as I talked about, the space has matured. And with that, we have seen more and more organisations building change capability or employing change professionals. As a profession, we definitely need to keep demonstrating that change is a hard, metric, measurable outcome.

[00:16:59] Eloise: [00:17:00] And the metrics that fit around change will continue to demonstrate the value of change. So, you know, forgive me for saying again some cliche words, but change isn't fluffy. It's not all the marketing things, the banners, the balloons.

[00:17:15] Eloise: It's... it's not that. Those people might remember those things stuck on their desk for a little while, but making it, um, have metrics and demonstrating those metrics. There's a lot of work being done at the moment in the change portfolio management space. I know that CMI have got Jen Zuber in and she's doing some awesome training and change portfolio management.

[00:17:38] Eloise: Now, we will continue to see more of that and putting those metrics in really helped consolidate and demonstrate the value in the leadership sessions. You know, your ELT can see, um, where the change fatigue is happening because change fatigue is a risk. I think Garner's recent review was showing that change [00:18:00] fatigue is higher than it's ever been.

[00:18:01] Eloise: Um, and so we need to continue managing and talking to those. Um, aligning ourselves to the overall strategy and being in there when the program is setting up. Um, goes back to my point about recruiting at the right time.

[00:18:19] Eloise: Yes. So, um, I think those are critical. And then the other thing is. Being adaptable, you know, the large corporations to the small to mediums. As people, as organisations, we need to be aware of what is the best size model that fits this organisation. You know, would you have one person versus five? Um, but the principles need to stay the same and we need to be consistent, but we need to build teams appropriately based on the organisation, their problems, and what they're leaning into.

[00:18:53] Mel: I think that's excellent advice. It's around, you know, it sounds like it's around the skills, but it's also around, uh, knowing what you want to achieve [00:19:00] and then being able to talk about what you've achieved. And that's somewhere where in comms, we fall down all the time. You know, we don't measure the outcome of what we've done. There's often a lot of outputs, you know, we've X number of people read this email and X number of people engaged with this social media posts, but so what, what business value did that add? Um, one more question for you. What advice would you give to someone who is considering change management as a career?

[00:19:30] Eloise: My first piece of advice is be curious. Start with curiosity. I think I would give this to anyone working in corporate in 2024. In fact, I'd probably give it to all my friends across industries, but, um, as a profession, work out what your, you know, where your interest comes from and speak to people that are working in the space. Um, I always recommend people go and look [00:20:00] at Change Management Institute networking events.

[00:20:03] Eloise: Or, you know, some, some kind of networking in change to really speak to people that are doing change. in their day to day and work out what the job looks like. And then the other piece is, you know, about working out the type of person you want to be in change. In 2024, where we're at currently is, uh, there is a lot of change.

[00:20:26] Eloise: There's a lot of digital change, but there are people, um, that come into the role and don't specialise. Um, and I, um, my kind of golden nugget on this is that the more we can specialise and work out what our secret sauce is, the more we can differentiate and that might make you more niche and it might rule out, you know, five in 10 jobs, but if you can work out where you really add value and what really kind of where you can make change stick and make impact, then lean into [00:21:00] that space.

[00:21:01] Eloise: And then the other piece is: it goes back to my earlier comment of tough conversations. Don't be afraid to, um, to ask questions, to communicate, and it goes to your profession Mel - It's, it's the, the really great change practitioners need to not be scared to have tough conversations. And if you are someone considering going into change that is scared of confrontation or Saying no or, um, probing further, then maybe look at doing, um, some conversation, uh, some communication courses first, um, on, on how to have tough conversations on how to deal with objections.

[00:21:44] Eloise: Because a lot of the role requires a very resilient, well equipped person that can communicate effectively.

[00:21:51] Mel: I think that is excellent advice. Thank you for sharing. You know, it, this happened in comms as well. There used to be a lot of generalist [00:22:00] communicators, but now we have internal, change, external, government, you know, all of the above.

[00:22:04] Mel: And I think you have to specialise to professionalise. So doing that in change and you're maybe your niche is people change. Maybe it's technology. Maybe it's mining, whatever. Uh, but as you say, it might rule out these jobs, but it makes you so in demand for those others, right?

[00:22:22] Eloise: Don't be too scared to specialise because you think you're going to rule out yourself out or preclude yourself from a role. I know that the job market has ups and downs and peaks and troughs, but when you specialise, it means people know what to call you for.

[00:22:37] Mel: Thank you so much Eloise for sharing all of those.. Gold Nuggets of advice with us this morning.

[00:22:42] Mel: I've got three questions I ask everybody on the podcast. Are you ready for those?

[00:22:46] Eloise: I am.

[00:22:47] Mel: Let's bring it on.

[00:22:49] Mel: What is one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned and how did it change the way you approach communication?

[00:22:57] Eloise: One of the best comms [00:23:00] lessons I've ever learned is listening, um, is a secret sauce to communicating well. And I think at the moment, more than ever, we are so busy. Um,

[00:23:12] Eloise: there's

[00:23:13] Eloise: a real power to listening and really hearing and probing. And you know, when you're listening well, and it really allows you to position yourself, um, to have an impact and have a meaningful conversation, which people remember.

[00:23:28] Mel: Absolutely, you feel valued when somebody's listened to you and can show that they've listened too. Next question. What's something else that you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating or maybe both?

[00:23:42] Eloise: It's the tough conversations for me. Yeah, I see too much shying away. from having a tough conversation. And if there was one piece of advice I could give to people that are coming up in their career at the moment, you [00:24:00] know, the Gen Z's of the world is the people. I think it was Tim Ferriss that said, the people that don't shy away from having the tough conversations are the people that are successful. You know, the more tough conversations you can have and get practice... having the better placed you will be with your career and those communicators that can get comfortable having those tough conversations. They make you feel icky, but the impact that you have and also, you know, sometimes saying no is the right thing to do, and we need to know that we can exercise our right to do that.

[00:24:38] Mel: And I think to your earlier point, that's where we build trust, especially when those conversations are done in a way where you show, you know, this isn't, a personal attack. It's not a whinge. It's actually, I want the best outcome for you. And I want the best outcome for your business. And I think this is the conversation we need to have to help us get there.

[00:24:55] Mel: Uh, last question. Who do you turn to for communication advice? [00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Eloise: The likes of yourself really Mel, definitely people that have been on my podcast, the experts in the communications space. I, um, I listened to Tim Ferriss a lot. I'm, I'm a podcast junkie. Um, so read and consume a lot of thought leadership books like Robin Sharma, who I quoted on this is just my guru.

[00:25:23] Eloise: Um, and then yeah, guests I've had on my show that the greats that are doing it so well. Um, I often find myself sending, bits of thought leadership to like Jen Zuber even to go, what do you think of this? And I think going into the future, it probably will be the likes of chat GPT that we'll almost brainstorm with to wake us up. Um, and we'll turn to it as a tool, um, to, to get our creative juices flowing.

[00:25:54] Mel: Yeah, that's a really good point. And something we didn't actually touch on today is sort of that emerging role of AI in [00:26:00] change as well. Shall we have a quick chat about that? Good idea.

[00:26:03] Eloise: Yes. Almost remiss. I think, um, to not mention that in this episode, because the role of change, when we talk about capability uplift in organisations and change is also very similar.

[00:26:18] Eloise: The role of change is very important for the capability and use of AI. I'm seeing organisations building out, um, AI change capability experts. Yeah, in Sydney already.

[00:26:31] Mel: Wow.

[00:26:32] Eloise: Um, and so it's twofold. It's twofold in every profession, isn't it? You know, someone said to me the other day that lawyers are looking at, you know, how does it impact our profession? How are we going to drive responsibility? Utilizing the tool and the same for change. How does it impact our role? How can we harness and use the tool, but how can we empower people to use the tool? responsibly and and reduce risks [00:27:00] and make sure that we're kind of using it effectively.

[00:27:04] Mel: Yeah. And, uh, I think we're seeing that across... a lot of professions, right? The, the, you will be left behind if you don't learn how to use it. And it's moving so fast. It will never be so slow again - that you actually do need to go, actually, this is going to be part of our toolkit moving forward. It's not going to replace our jobs, necessarily, because it can't have empathy. It can't think strategically, all those sorts of things - but there are ways that it can be so useful, in what we do, whether that's helping you just start a change plan or brainstorming some ideas, you know, first draft of a comms, whatever it might be, even, you know, down to imagery and all those sorts of things as well.

[00:27:46] Mel: There's so much opportunity there. And are there particular, are you seeing a lot more of those roles or it's just kind of in its infancy right now?

[00:27:54] Eloise: It's definitely in its infancy. I think they'll continue to grow. Um, I think that the companies I'm [00:28:00] seeing build specialisation in this space are definitely pioneers. Um, but it is a space that is ripe for change. And when we talk about specialising, it never has there been a time more to lean into the human elements of your role and where you can drive real success because, you know, someone said to me the other day that Silicon Valley, they are all racing to have the first organisation that's one person and AI running it.

[00:28:35] Mel: Wow.

[00:28:36] Eloise: And if you think about that. And I think on shore, we, we're still not embracing the tooling enough, talking about the tooling enough, where can we release some load and where can we lean in and how to be really smart with it. I know that Tim from ProSci is doing some amazing creative work using the tooling and um, [00:29:00] as change practitioners, as comms professionals, we really need to role model how to use the tool effectively, appropriately, and mitigate risks, but be responsible with the likes of Chat GPT.

[00:29:14] Mel: Yeah, I totally agree. Well, Eloise, thank you so much for chatting today. If people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to find you and learn from you?

[00:29:22] Eloise: I would say LinkedIn's probably the first point of contact. I do have a website, which is changeittalent. com. Um, and then through the podcast, I do read all the comments and feedback. Um, but thank you so much. This has been awesome, Mel, it's been so lovely to have you on my show and speak on your show. I love what you're doing and I find you incredibly refreshing in the world of comms.

[00:29:48] Mel: Oh, thank you so much.

[00:29:50] Mel: It's been an absolute pleasure.